meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Agreed 100%.
Non-Union airlines..
- Thread starter meritflyer
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Agreed 100%.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Now that I do completely agree with.
The regional airlines would not exist or grow if the mainline companies did not have scope clauses that allow them to fly 50-80 seat jets for them.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Seriously...
One more point Dave if it were flown by mainline seniority numbers, you would have a seniority number at a legacy, not a 'regional' with your new airline.
ZWflyer
Well-Known Member
But Airdale, think about this for a minute....WHY do you think that mainline is contracting out those routes?? Because regionals flying larger airplanes are agreeing to do it for a FRACTION of the price. If regionals weren't buying 70-90 seat airplanes and paying pilots what amounts to pennies on the dollar to fly them, then the situation wouldn't exist of regionals taking over these routes that mainline "doesn't want to fly."
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Great way to look at it Airdale. It just is how it is huh? I hope you're never my MEC.
As for legacy carries subbing out flying they didn't want? C'mon man, wake up and smell the thorns. Management found a way to put a 90 seat jet on the route at twice the frequency of a MD or 737 at a fraction of the cost of a mainline pilot (ie you and me!). It's not a good thing unless you want to hang out at a regional carrier for the rest of your career.
Your management is going to love you.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Before you leave, let us go to the Airways crewroom in LGA and we can find some Airways pilots you can tell that to. I want to see their reaction...
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Oh thats right I forgot. You're the GREAT oh WISE ALPA UNION know-it-all-ain't-been-at-an-airline-for-a-year First Officer!
Well someday, when YOU'RE the MEC. Why don't you fight against your management to get rid of their shiney 50 seat jets and go back to turbo props so MAINLINE can take back their routes.
The Regional Airlines saw an opportunity in a market with new aircraft. Just so happens that the Majors bought in on the idea. Maybe the idea was started by the Majors? Who was the FIRST regional to operate the Regional Jet. If my Aviation history serves me correctly, it was COMAIR. Oh yeah thats right, COMAIR is owned by Delta. So was it really Delta that wanted the RJ's?
You can sit here and argue about it all day long. The bottom line is, you're never going to change the fact the Regionals are flying larger aircraft. Until management at the Majors decides that they want their aircraft on those routes, it ain't gonna happen. There was a gap between the 50-90 seat market because MAINLINE pilots refused to fly aircraft that size. Well guess what? Regionals filled the gap. I will laugh if a mainline pilot tells me I'm stealing his flying. Umm..negative. It was your flying, but you didn't want to fly these aircraft - remember - and your company decided to contract this route to have less empty seats.
We can fight to change pay, work rules and QOL. But you will never change the direction of the industry and the aircraft in it.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Before you leave, let us go to the Airways crewroom in LGA and we can find some Airways pilots you can tell that to. I want to see their reaction...
I would love to hear their side. Its just funny that they would have any complaining to do, when the name on the side of the aircraft is the same as theirs. If they don't like it, well then rather the b*tch to the guys flying it, they need to complain to their MEC or their Chief pilot.
* Disclaimer - I'm not saying I want to fly for a Regional my whole life. Outsourced labor is the next generation America. Its not just the Airlines, its EVERY industry anymore. Someday I would like to fly for a Major, but obviously the Major's have a different business agenda then just a few pilots on a message board. It is what it is the honest truth. You're not going to convince Mainline to "take back" those routes. They gave them away in the first place because they weren't making money flying wide body aircraft half friggin empty. So they threw a smaller RJ on it to maximize profit. Its just business.
ZWflyer
Well-Known Member
I can't disagree with you one bit there. Mainline pilots made a big mistake when they left that scope open. That mistake has now been exploited by regional carriers.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Exactly what I'm saying. Regional Airlines are in the business just as much as the Majors are. They were smart for seeing market potential and of course the Majors jumped all over this. People say the E170 is a mainline aircraft. Last I checked, it has less than 90 seats.
If a mainline aircraft flies from BOS to ROC, half empty, but an RJ flies FULL, then which aircraft has a higher profit?
Nick
Well-Known Member
This post:
Does not go with this post:
You said you don't want to fly at a regional your whole career, but you think it is a positive thing that regional airlines continue to get more flying that used to be mainline?
Does not go with this post:
You said you don't want to fly at a regional your whole career, but you think it is a positive thing that regional airlines continue to get more flying that used to be mainline?
Airdale
Well-Known Member
What I meant by positive thing, are the aircraft that the Regionals are now flying. Not the flying they're doing for the Majors.
Think about it. How many people are still using IBM 460 computers? Technology has come a LONG way. Its a POSITIVE thing that you get start your airline carrier flying new technology.
* In no way do I endorse the MINIMUM requirements to fly said technology, but to be flying an aircraft loaded with FMS/GPS, electronic diagnostic equipment on board is far safer and up to date then flying say my 1900 with nothing.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Well...I have no response!
I've said it before, if its got wings, I'll fly it. I care more about the company I work for then what I'm flying. That being said, the reason you mentioned above is exactly why my career goals are to make the right seat of a mainline aircraft, whatever aircraft that may be.I have a different mentality then many I believe. I don't CARE what I fly. The better the technology the safer I do believe, but I care more about the company and the future for as long as it takes for me to land a job at a Major.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Okay, Airdale, this is what I get out of your posts then:
1) RJs have and will continue to take advantage of weak mainline scope
2) Not many want to fly for a regional as a career
3) At least the commuters are glass cockpits now, even though that comes with a million dollar income reduction over a career.
So, given the fact that RJs directly replace mainline on many routes, then we must assume that to a degree, regional airlines replace mainline jobs.
You would rather have more regional airline jobs and fewer mainline jobs as long as it's a glass cockpit with hi-tech stuff? (the ERJ is quite low tech in my opinion, and in fact I think the engineers who let it out of the factory had an attitude of "that's good enough", I presume the -170 is probably a lot better).
1) RJs have and will continue to take advantage of weak mainline scope
2) Not many want to fly for a regional as a career
3) At least the commuters are glass cockpits now, even though that comes with a million dollar income reduction over a career.
So, given the fact that RJs directly replace mainline on many routes, then we must assume that to a degree, regional airlines replace mainline jobs.
You would rather have more regional airline jobs and fewer mainline jobs as long as it's a glass cockpit with hi-tech stuff? (the ERJ is quite low tech in my opinion, and in fact I think the engineers who let it out of the factory had an attitude of "that's good enough", I presume the -170 is probably a lot better).
jynxyjoe
Queso King
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Your new job at rebubshutaqua getting to your head?
Don't let Bedford think he's going to have 170's at CAL under their new contract. Thats the only reason that he got CRJs was to have an in at CAL under his false impression that CAL will give up scope in these negotiations. CHQ loses a TON of money on their CAL flying when you consider the CRJ program costs.
While there are a myriad of forces that brought the RJs into light (I could probably white a doctoral thesis on such), The majors scoped that flying away, the commuters became contract feed airlines, and the manufactures created such jets, Its nearly impossible to pinpoint blame on any one group. The net result is a loss of good mainline jobs, and an increase of contract feed jobs. Dont kid yourself airdale, you and your job are no better than the outsourced call center job in india. All that you have could be taken away at the whim of a contract. Any job at a Major is infinitely more stable than any job at a 'regional'.
Don't let Bedford think he's going to have 170's at CAL under their new contract. Thats the only reason that he got CRJs was to have an in at CAL under his false impression that CAL will give up scope in these negotiations. CHQ loses a TON of money on their CAL flying when you consider the CRJ program costs.
While there are a myriad of forces that brought the RJs into light (I could probably white a doctoral thesis on such), The majors scoped that flying away, the commuters became contract feed airlines, and the manufactures created such jets, Its nearly impossible to pinpoint blame on any one group. The net result is a loss of good mainline jobs, and an increase of contract feed jobs. Dont kid yourself airdale, you and your job are no better than the outsourced call center job in india. All that you have could be taken away at the whim of a contract. Any job at a Major is infinitely more stable than any job at a 'regional'.
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