No more Brasilias at SkyWest...

I've commuted to reserve at a regional. I would rate it somewhere between "miserable" and "tolerable".

Commuting to short call at a regional is a fate worse than hell.

Doing it for the better part of a decade should be criminal.

But no, NNOOOO, don't let that stop the senior guys from telling you about how you'll be senior for the majority of your career.

Unless you aren't, in which case, suck it because you're junior.
 
Commuting to short call at a regional is a fate worse than hell.

Doing it for the better part of a decade should be criminal.

But no, NNOOOO, don't let that stop the senior guys from telling you about how you'll be senior for the majority of your career.

Unless you aren't, in which case, suck it because you're junior.
It was all short call, plus proffering. Meh.
 
Commuting to short call at a regional is a fate worse than hell.

Doing it for the better part of a decade should be criminal.

But no, NNOOOO, don't let that stop the senior guys from telling you about how you'll be senior for the majority of your career.

Unless you aren't, in which case, suck it because you're junior.

Yup. Guys on reserve for 5 years at ASA/XJT. Nobody cared because, "they're reserve pilots."
 
There were guys who were reserve FOs at USAirways for 10 or more years... after they had been a line holding captain.

Somebody always has it worse. The numbers don't matter.

It just seems selfish to pull the ladder up once you climb it, and pretend as if you deserve to be up higher. There's no quality difference between a senior guy and a junior guy. They are both capable and both equals as pilots, yet as an industry we treat junior guys like crap.
 
No one is pulling the ladder up. The ladder is still there, you just have to climb it like the guy who came before you. You know, fair. As opposed to him having to climb it, and you being allowed to jump right to the top. I.e., the opposite of fair.
 
No one is pulling the ladder up. The ladder is still there, you just have to climb it like the guy who came before you. You know, fair. As opposed to him having to climb it, and you being allowed to jump right to the top. I.e., the opposite of fair.

The system is inherently unfair. It values longevity over ability and attitude. The worst pilot at the company is equals with the best and hardest working. I understand why it is that way, but that is not a fair system.
 
A lot like tenure system in academia. Except once tenured they're all exalted and equal in a way
 
Not to hijack the thread hijack, but...




I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. I hand fly the thing all the time, occasionally entire flights. Hell, yesterday I put it in cruise and didn't touch the controls again until it was time to descend. It trims out quite nicely.

Remember, the electric trim should only be used for one thing: turning off the autopilot.

In my experience it wasn't an airplane you could fly around with your fingertips a lot of the time. If you got it trimmed out, sure, any airplane will do that but as soon as you touched the power, or turned, or shifted in your seat, or if a passenger farted, you had to re-trim it. You can certainly be smooth with it, but it's more of a handful than others that I've flown.
 
For @Autothrust Blue and @PhilosopherPilot here is the 'why'. To make it clear, I bid 83ish% in base and can be a very junior line holder if I want to be.

Fundamentally the system developed here in the United States is seniority based. Folks entering the industry (unless they have NO idea) know that it is seniority based and they are signing up for the fact that they may need to work days/lines/etc. they don't want to. It is what it is. No matter if you work for XYZ Airline, public service, or corporate America, there are benefits of seniority. Yes, they are magnified at airlines, but seniority does have it's privileges. As @ATN_Pilot said is it 'fair' for the guy who put his time in at a company to be expected to sit reserve/airport standby in base if they commute and can easily hold a line? It isn't.

If this rotating reserve bull-crap is proposed you are opening a pandora's box of possibilities of what else may be proposed from management about ways to get around the seniority system. Do folks go back and forth between seats? What about how vacation is bid/awarded? Pay? And so on and so forth. Why reinvent the system? We need to invest in the system (more on that later) rather than think we are smarter to reinvent it.

From an operational standpoint there is consistency with generally the same folks being assigned reserve schedules vs. line holders. Having guys/gals go back and forth constantly between reserve and line holders would reduce reserve availability overall.

It is also a very narrow minded misconception to think that if you rotate folks you are 'spreading the pain'. For example, I am purposely bidding reserve in November/December to be off Thanksgiving and Christmas even though I can hold a line. Someone junior to me is getting a line that may have wanted one but wasn't expecting to get one because they were below the line holder line here. If they are a commuter being a line holder vs. reserve is very beneficial to them. Furthermore, at my place, @Derg, and @Autothrust Blue father is at you have folks who bid aircraft based on a lifestyle. They mainly bid the wide-bodies, bid reserve purposely, and go months without flying (if they were line holders they would fly 9 days a month but fly less than that on reserve). As a matter of fact, reserve on our wide bodies go REALLY REALLY REALLY senior. Would it be 'fair' to 'spread the pain' and have them fly if they don't want to? Or would it be better to allow their seniority to hold reserve and not fly?

Those two concepts, the fact that there are senior line holders who will bid reserve in months like November and December AND the fact that there are 'life style' pilots who will bid reserve purposely are the driving forces that create good reserve language (as I said invest in the system). 'Spreading the pain' between everyone once every 12 months will actually put you at a negotiating disadvantage because folks will say, 'well why invest in the reserve rules if I only need to do it once a year for 30 days? I will just take my vacation weeks the reserve month I am assigned.'

Investing in good reserve rules that make it attractive for guys/gals like myself and life style pilots purposely bid reserve when they can be line holders is the key to moving the junior guys from reserve to line holders.

So that is the 'why'. There is nothing wrong with the seniority based system. We just need to make sure we invest in all seniority ranges.
 
For @Autothrust Blue and @PhilosopherPilot here is the 'why'. To make it clear, I bid 83ish% in base and can be a very junior line holder if I want to be.

Fundamentally the system developed here in the United States is seniority based. Folks entering the industry (unless they have NO idea) know that it is seniority based and they are signing up for the fact that they may need to work days/lines/etc. they don't want to. It is what it is. No matter if you work for XYZ Airline, public service, or corporate America, there are benefits of seniority. Yes, they are magnified at airlines, but seniority does have it's privileges. As @ATN_Pilot said is it 'fair' for the guy who put his time in at a company to be expected to sit reserve/airport standby in base if they commute and can easily hold a line? It isn't.

If this rotating reserve bull-crap is proposed you are opening a pandora's box of possibilities of what else may be proposed from management about ways to get around the seniority system. Do folks go back and forth between seats? What about how vacation is bid/awarded? Pay? And so on and so forth. Why reinvent the system? We need to invest in the system (more on that later) rather than think we are smarter to reinvent it.

From an operational standpoint there is consistency with generally the same folks being assigned reserve schedules vs. line holders. Having guys/gals go back and forth constantly between reserve and line holders would reduce reserve availability overall.

It is also a very narrow minded misconception to think that if you rotate folks you are 'spreading the pain'. For example, I am purposely bidding reserve in November/December to be off Thanksgiving and Christmas even though I can hold a line. Someone junior to me is getting a line that may have wanted one but wasn't expecting to get one because they were below the line holder line here. If they are a commuter being a line holder vs. reserve is very beneficial to them. Furthermore, at my place, @Derg, and @Autothrust Blue father is at you have folks who bid aircraft based on a lifestyle. They mainly bid the wide-bodies, bid reserve purposely, and go months without flying (if they were line holders they would fly 9 days a month but fly less than that on reserve). As a matter of fact, reserve on our wide bodies go REALLY REALLY REALLY senior. Would it be 'fair' to 'spread the pain' and have them fly if they don't want to? Or would it be better to allow their seniority to hold reserve and not fly?

Those two concepts, the fact that there are senior line holders who will bid reserve in months like November and December AND the fact that there are 'life style' pilots who will bid reserve purposely are the driving forces that create good reserve language (as I said invest in the system). 'Spreading the pain' between everyone once every 12 months will actually put you at a negotiating disadvantage because folks will say, 'well why invest in the reserve rules if I only need to do it once a year for 30 days? I will just take my vacation weeks the reserve month I am assigned.'

Investing in good reserve rules that make it attractive for guys/gals like myself and life style pilots purposely bid reserve when they can be line holders is the key to moving the junior guys from reserve to line holders.

So that is the 'why'. There is nothing wrong with the seniority based system. We just need to make sure we invest in all seniority ranges.

I've got no problem with any of that. I just don't think the idea should be dismissed out of hand "cuz seniority." It may work at some places.
 
Unless you aren't, in which case, suck it because you're junior.

So what are your thoughts on new hires at companies NOT being provided hotel rooms while in initial training? When should that be fixed? Before or after reserve rules like airport standby?
 
The system is inherently unfair. It values longevity over ability and attitude. The worst pilot at the company is equals with the best and hardest working. I understand why it is that way, but that is not a fair system.

It's a good thing we don't have to fly together. I think I'd end up beating you to death with the fire extinguisher by the end of a 4 day. :)
 
It's a good thing we don't have to fly together. I think I'd end up beating you to death with the fire extinguisher by the end of a 4 day. :)

So you don't agree that IF an accurate and objective method could be created to determine merit that merit wouldn't be superior to seniority?

Merit is the very basis of our society. Who gets the promotion? The guy who worked hardest and deserves it most. Only in our narrow corner of the working world can you be a slack ass and still get promoted. (Well our corner and other heavily unionized areas.)

"Don't excel, you'll make the rest of us look bad."
 
With a proper culture of who a company hires, training, safety programs, mentoring, and other small things management can do you have a moot point as it is self correcting.

BS. The system trends to the lowest common denominator. Min standard is as good as high standard. It sure as hell isn't self correcting. We have the "horrible hundred" here. (Top 100 guys.) They do their jobs to the level necessary to not get fired, and nothing more.
 
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