No more Brasilias at SkyWest...

jtrain609 said:
Airlines promote superior employees in seniority order. You still have to pass upgrade training, and then upgrade OE in order to qualify as a captain. If airlines take this process seriously, then they will pass over all the employees which are incapable of being captains.

But they'll do it in seniority order.
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Exactly!
 
Shoot this thread down, its been hijacked by thread terrorists! :bang:

How about starting up a new thread? Better yet, ATN_Pilot carry on these ideological viewpoints in private conversations...
 
jtrain609 said:
Airlines promote superior employees in seniority order. You still have to pass upgrade training, and then upgrade OE in order to qualify as a captain. If airlines take this process seriously, then they will pass over all the employees which are incapable of being captains.

But they'll do it in seniority order.
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Does it happen that people can't pass upgrade?
 
jtrain609 said:
Airlines promote superior employees in seniority order. You still have to pass upgrade training, and then upgrade OE in order to qualify as a captain. If airlines take this process seriously, then they will pass over all the employees which are incapable of being captains.

But they'll do it in seniority order.
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Understood. We had moved on to a conversation about companies in general, not just airlines.
 
MikeD said:
Are these people then fired for non-progression? Because it would seem they are a stagnant employee and not one excelling in their craft. :)
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Depends. SWA used to have an "up or out" policy, and yes, you were gone. That's been gone for a little while now, though. Most airlines give you either 2 or 3 chances. They'll generally let you stay in the right seat indefinitely, though, which I always found odd. Seems to me that it would be just as big of a legal and PR liability following an accident.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Depends. SWA used to have an "up or out" policy, and yes, you were gone. That's been gone for a little while now, though. Most airlines give you either 2 or 3 chances. They'll generally let you stay in the right seat indefinitely, though, which I always found odd. Seems to me that it would be just as big of a legal and PR liability following an accident.
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I have always wondered that, regarding up or out. For the specific reasons you mention in your last sentence there. Maybe someone is a great FO, but wouldn't make a good Captain; but try explaning that logic come accident/incident time to the Feds, public, etc. It would be a very difficult legal/PR position to be in, I would think.
 
Not everyone wants to be a Capt though they could pass the training. Where I work a 15 year F/O makes 200K. It's not worth it to many to give up the senior schedules to be in the left seat. Had the planets aligned a little different I'd stayed as an F/O myself. I don't understand the argument for up or out.
 
DE727UPS said:
Not everyone wants to be a Capt though they could pass the training. Where I work a 15 year F/O makes 200K. It's not worth it to many to give up the senior schedules to be in the left seat. Had the planets aligned a little different I'd stayed as an F/O myself. I don't understand the argument for up or out.
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Me either. Both are perfectly respectable positions. There's no shame in being an FO. Up or out is a vestige from the old school when first officer or copilot meant you weren't as qualified or experienced as the captain. These days the FO may very well be more experienced and/or qualified than the captain.
 
I'm not in favor of up-or-out. But I do think that if you bid to upgrade a couple of times and fail it both times, it's probably time for you to find another line of work
 
DE727UPS said:
Not everyone wants to be a Capt though they could pass the training. Where I work a 15 year F/O makes 200K. It's not worth it to many to give up the senior schedules to be in the left seat. Had the planets aligned a little different I'd stayed as an F/O myself. I don't understand the argument for up or out.
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PhilosopherPilot said:
Me either. Both are perfectly respectable positions. There's no shame in being an FO. Up or out is a vestige from the old school when first officer or copilot meant you weren't as qualified or experienced as the captain. These days the FO may very well be more experienced and/or qualified than the captain.
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I can understand a choice of not wanting to, for whatever reasons. I was more referring to the guy who wants to, but can't pass the upgrade or fails the checks, etc. Then has to remain an FO. Is that something that the company looks at negatively or does it have a negative impact on the persons professional career there?
 
MikeD said:
I have always wondered that, regarding up or out. For the specific reasons you mention in your last sentence there. Maybe someone is a great FO, but wouldn't make a good Captain; but try explaning that logic come accident/incident time to the Feds, public, etc. It would be a very difficult legal/PR position to be in, I would think.
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I don't buy it. Especially now that everyone is typed. Lousy first officers will make lousy captains someday, and since upgrade is essentially fait accompli given sufficient time, well, you can see where that line of logic is going. It bothers me.

We had up or out for a long time; we no longer do, but if you bust enough transitions or upgrades you get frozen on your current seat for the remainder of your time at the Company. The specific details of the policy escape me.
 
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