Next Up in the RLA Conga Line

[JDean3204]

American TA to include potential Home Basing language, interesting. Maybe that could be the new industry standard moving forward. I read through it and it sounds like only in airports with a high enough number of pilots, but the potential to actually bid starts and stops in those airports vs the awarded bid base.

 

[L-16B]

American TA to include potential Home Basing language, interesting. Maybe that could be the new industry standard moving forward. I read through it and it sounds like only in airports with a high enough number of pilots, but the potential to actually bid starts and stops in those airports vs the awarded bid base.

That’s news to me. Didn’t hear about that in the town hall last night. Are you referring to the already existing satellite bases?

 

[tcco94]

Won’t that just make base seniority worse if they are creating trips that start and end from other airports to be included in your base seniority?

 

[CFIT99]

Won’t that just make base seniority worse if they are creating trips that start and end from other airports to be included in your base seniority?

Didn't Alaska/VA do this when they closed NY..."ghost" bidding....I don't know, whatever, everything hurts and I'm dying.

 

[thevideographer]

Just curious, are there any airlines out there (regional or otherwise) that allow the company to notify you anytime, anywhere by an electronic message and consider you notified without confirmation? Any using involuntary electronic notification systems at all?

Because that's in the AA TA.

 

[Stone Cold]

Just curious, are there any airlines out there (regional or otherwise) that allow the company to notify you anytime, anywhere by an electronic message and consider you notified without confirmation? Any using involuntary electronic notification systems at all?

Because that's in the AA TA.

Even we don’t do that in the ACMI world, at least at my shop. That’s crazy.

 

[ShortField]

Just curious, are there any airlines out there (regional or otherwise) that allow the company to notify you anytime, anywhere by an electronic message and consider you notified without confirmation? Any using involuntary electronic notification systems at all?

Because that's in the AA TA.

 

[DE727UPS]

At Brown, if you have a notification, you are locked out of the scheduling page until you acknowledge it. But you have to take action to receive the advisement and confirm. They usually get you one way or another. Resistance is futile.

 

[Richman]

You’re talking about “constructive notification”. It’s a big deal when and where they can do it. Basically the electronic equivalent of a note under your door.

Being tied to your crackberry like the corporate guys is every airline scheduler’s wet dream. If your system is like that, where a text or voicemail is official notification, yea, you want to assiduously avoid that.

If it’s a read only text or email with no read requirement or “read” ping back, then that might be ok, but details matter.

 

[thevideographer]

If it’s a read only text or email with no read requirement or “read” ping back, then that might be ok, but details matter.

The details are actually worse than that, they consider you notified whether you've read it or not, and can send messages any time on or off duty.

 

[BobDDuck]

The details are actually worse than that, they consider you notified whether you've read it or not, and can send messages any time on or off duty.

Is that actually the description that APA has given out, or is that the understanding that has been formed on various web forums and Facebook Groups. Because while yes, that is every company's dream, the FAA doesn't actually allow it, and no NC is going to agree to it, except in very narrow, defined circumstances.

 

[thevideographer]

Is that actually the description that APA has given out, or is that the understanding that has been formed on various web forums and Facebook Groups. Because while yes, that is every company's dream, the FAA doesn't actually allow it, and no NC is going to agree to it, except in very narrow, defined circumstances.

It's not a description from APA, it's not the interpretation of the Facebook group, it's what is typed in the TA. Relevant paragraphs:

The Electronic Communication System (ECS) will be the primary means of communication between the Company and the pilot regarding the pilot’s schedule.

a. ECS messages may be sent by the Company whenever required by the CBA or at the discretion of the Company.

b. A pilot may use the ECS to communicate with the Company.
c. While on duty, pilots are expected to verify ECS messages received from the Company regarding the pilot’s schedule.

d. While on duty, pilots are expected to respond to Company attempts by alternative means to notify them of changes to their schedule in the event that the Company determines ECS to be inadequate.

e. When a pilot is not on duty, they are not required to Verify ECS messages. Pilots will verify ECS messages sent while not on duty once they resume duty.

To the extent possible, Electronic Communication (EC) notification and verification will be used for Reserve Awards/Assignments. Absent electronic notification capabilities, CrewSchedule will make first person contact for all assignments outside DOTC unless verified by other means. Awards of preferences must be verified through AVRS, Personal Mode, CrewSchedule or the Internet. In all cases, if a pilot cannot be contacted, Crew Schedule shall leave messages when possible.

(1) An EC does not require confirmation.
(2) A Reserve will Verify ECs when sent while on duty or upon commencing duty.
(3) A Reserve who receives an EC while not on duty may voluntarily Verify the EC, but is not required to Verify while not on duty. Voluntary Verification is not considered duty.

Tell me that's not some of the worst contract language you've ever seen.

 

[BobDDuck]

Tell me that's not some of the worst contract language you've ever seen.

Not even close. I've seen way, way worse.

Almost all company's allow notification while not on duty. It's pretty common. However (and I don't see anything different with the language you posted) a pilot is never required to check or acknowledge those notifications until their duty starts.

As far as the point that says "An EC does not required confirmation", what does that mean? I see "verify" and "verification" used as terms to describe a pilot acknowledging an assignment received via an EC, but I don't see the term "confirmation" used anywhere else, so I'm not sure what exactly that means in this specific case. That is why I asked if the interpretation came from the NC or from people talking on message boards.

Look, it is entirely possible that is terrible language that will let the company do whatever they want and totally screw over the pilots. It's also entirely possible that this is nothing other than a way of getting crew schedulers out of a pilot's lives. In general, pilots suck at understanding contract language. That's why so many guys complain about language complexity and how it creates gray areas and how plain language contracts would be so much better. They wouldn't be, but it's the lack of ability to fully comprehend what is often very complex and nuanced language that drives that. Again, I don't know if that's the case here, but until you get some kind of confirmation way way or anther from people that actually fully understand both the language and the shared intent of the language, I'd keep your powder dry.

EDIT: I'd be way more concerned about d) allowing the company to use ACARS or a gate agent as a way of assigning a pilot something.

 

[RORO]

Not even close. I've seen way, way worse.

Almost all company's allow notification while not on duty. It's pretty common. However (and I don't see anything different with the language you posted) a pilot is never required to check or acknowledge those notifications until their duty starts.

As far as the point that says "An EC does not required confirmation", what does that mean? I see "verify" and "verification" used as terms to describe a pilot acknowledging an assignment received via an EC, but I don't see the term "confirmation" used anywhere else, so I'm not sure what exactly that means in this specific case. That is why I asked if the interpretation came from the NC or from people talking on message boards.

Look, it is entirely possible that is terrible language that will let the company do whatever they want and totally screw over the pilots. It's also entirely possible that this is nothing other than a way of getting crew schedulers out of a pilot's lives. In general, pilots suck at understanding contract language. That's why so many guys complain about language complexity and how it creates gray areas and how plain language contracts would be so much better. They wouldn't be, but it's the lack of ability to fully comprehend what is often very complex and nuanced language that drives that. Again, I don't know if that's the case here, but until you get some kind of confirmation way way or anther from people that actually fully understand both the language and the shared intent of the language, I'd keep your powder dry.

EDIT: I'd be way more concerned about d) allowing the company to use ACARS or a gate agent as a way of assigning a pilot something.

You hit the nail on the head. He's omitting a bunch of other information pertinent to the discussion of ECS. As you mentioned, its already a requirement to acknowledge schedule changes while on duty and the company currently can reassign us via ACARS (except under sterile). Reserves are also required to acknowledge schedule changes, every now and then people are able to get away without doing a trip because scheduling never properly called them. Furthermore, ECS was already in our 2015 contract and was never implemented. It was coming one way or another.

I'veonly been reassigned once, but other pilots complain that it happens far too frequently. Under the proposed TA, reassignments would become very costly for the company, thus, reducing their frequency which was one of our top survey items. Under the proposed ECS pilots will also be able to communicate with scheduling to call in sick, no show deadheads, etc. All of this was explained in yesterday's townhall. Our NC has made themselves very available to answer questions and address concerns.

Essentially some of our pilots are mad that they will be held accountable for schedule changes that will pay more and become less common. The reserves will no longer have the notification technicality loop hole.

 

[EIR]

At Brown, if you have a notification, you are locked out of the scheduling page until you acknowledge it. But you have to take action to receive the advisement and confirm. They usually get you one way or another. Resistance is futile.

This is kind of still accurate. I'm not sure if you were around when they unveiled JCT, but most of our notifications come through JCT and populate in the notification section. If it's an urgent notification, CMS will still prompt you to log into JCT to acknowledge it, but not always. I kind of the miss the CMS way.

 

[Richman]

Essentially some of our pilots are mad that they will be held accountable for schedule changes that will pay more and become less common. The reserves will no longer have the notification technicality loop hole.

One person's loophole is another person's good deal.

Moving cheese is hazardous, and can be fatal if done to the wrong thing or in the wrong way.

 

[RORO]

One person's loophole is another person's good deal.

Moving cheese is hazardous, and can be fatal if done to the wrong thing or in the wrong way.

Fair point and good post. Don't take my post to be an endorsement of ECS, I'm not thrilled about it but the discussion about is a lot more nuanced than "this is the worst language EVER!!!11!!!"

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

I basically read the language as saying they can make changes on your schedule when you are not on duty and you don't have to acknowledge it. Once you're on duty you need to acknowledge it. If you want to acknowledge it when you're off duty you can but it is not required.

 

[Kingairer]

Social media hysteria. Basically this stops the hide and seek game you can do now “I don’t own a cell phone!” , but they’ll still get you eventually.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

American TA to include potential Home Basing language, interesting. Maybe that could be the new industry standard moving forward. I read through it and it sounds like only in airports with a high enough number of pilots, but the potential to actually bid starts and stops in those airports vs the awarded bid base.

Where did you hear this?