BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Wouldn't it be easier to just get that 91 hour credit/15 days of work line to begin with though, and not have to gamble on dumping your entire schedule and taking what's out there to rebuild it?
Next Up in the RLA Conga Line
- Thread starter Flyinthrew
- Start date
Wouldn't it be easier to just get that 91 hour credit/15 days of work line to begin with though, and not have to gamble on dumping your entire schedule and taking what's out there to rebuild it?
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
It would at least save two weeks of bidding manual lines and 3 rounds of trading.
One of the downsides of third step overall for the pilot group is that nearly everything left after 3rd step are red eye trips. Most of the trips in open flying are red eyes. For July it was nearly all of the open flying lines. In open time the leftover red eyes are assigned to reserves most of the long call reserves are assigned red eye trips.
Judging from what I am hearing on the line it is definitely contributing to our attrition issues. Which in turn creates a kind of vicious cycle of overloading the reserves with red eye trips and more JR pilots leaving.
I know what I signed up for and I'm not complaining about covering this flying. I do feel like we missed the mark contractually to protect the JR pilots. In particular the JR FOs from doing nothing but short call out red eye trips on reserve. As a commuter it must be brutal. Some kind of red eye override to make these trips more appealing to senior pilots or reserve rules limiting 6 red eye duty periods down to 3 or 4. It seems to be creating a lot resentment and from at least what I am hearing JR FOs looking to move on to other places of employment.
Every FO I have flown with has been great. Better than I was as an FO and a real loss if they leave.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I get what you are saying, but that's not going to change in PBS. Assuming you guys can drop after the PBS award down to some min credit, assuming there is coverage, guys are still going to drop their red eyes, and hope something better drops in to open time for them to grab. I just looked at my category (which flies a mix of international 3 to 5 days, a few west coast 2 days and a bunch of west coast 3 days, about half of which include a red eye going outbound (or a few coming home). For a category with 220 FOs, with fifteen days in the month left, there are between 2 and 3 uncovered pairings per day. About 75% of those are either red eyes to LAS or LAX, or all night turns to the South Pacific. There is 1 international pairing (with an ass hat for a captain on it) and a few very unproductive 3 day west coast trips. Some of those days will drop below min staffing and the pairing will get snapped up for 150% in a heartbeat, but everything else is going to get slammed on reserves. It's what they are (unfortunately) there for.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
It’s what I keep saying about PBS too. That and it won’t make an 87 hour averaging line value just go away.
I think the rules around red eyes need to change so they go a bit more senior.
I can dream right?
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Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Sounds like an easy adaptation from 4 straight weeks of night shift on call flying every night.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Was the was the language that was negotiated around Average Line Value or bidding window? 87 would be by far the highest ALV in the industry. We are currently the highest and can get up to 85. Most other properties are down in the low 80s, with a requirement to have a trailing average that is some number less than 80.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
I'll try and answer this but it will take a while.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Disclosure: the 87 number was from a jumpseater. 86 is the actual number per the scheduling committees email. I should have looked at that before posting. I'm dealing with a bit of red eye fog brain. Apologies.
Under line bidding:
Range: Bid Blocks of Time will be arranged to give the maximum number of Pilots a Bid Block that will be constructed between seventy-five (75:00) and eighty-five hours (85:00), or as set forth in Section 12.E.1.a [Flex Up Months]subject to Section 12.E.1. [Pay and Flight Time Credit] or as agreed to by the parties per Section 23.A.2.b.(2). The Bid Block range will be designated on the Monthly bid packages
Flex up can take us up an additional 3 hours. I can not find current average line value language in the contract under line bidding.
We do appear to be protected under PBS in the future to 85 (no actually 87) hours:
Average Line Value (ALV): The ALV is the number of all known Credit Hours, to include pre-assigned Credit, established by the Company that is the projected average of all Bid Block holder PBS awards for a Base Position in a Bid Period. The ALV shall be between seventy-two hours (72:00) and eighty five hours (85:00). A PBS solution must remain plus two hours (2:00) and minus one hour (1:00) of the published ALV
c. Maximum Credit Window: The Maximum Credit Window shall be no less than the minimum Credit value of the published ALV. The Association will determine the Threshold value to be set within the Maximum Credit Window.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Rollin coal the wrong way
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
It’s that second order number that keeps schedules from being grinding month after month. Some outfits call it a rolling ALV. At SouthernJets, it’s called the targeted line value, or TLV.
Generally, the way they work is that it’s a rolling average of the ALV, and the window is generally smaller and quite a bit lower than the max ALV. One of the effects of a smaller average ALV is that requires more pilots, which is generally a good thing.
At SJ, the TLV is 73-78.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
This has been my (limited) experience as well. Got like 17 days off last time I used this strategy, and just one redeye......out of a line that was 100% redeyes, with maybe 14 days off, originally. Love 3rd step (for the time being). Wouldn't love it if I were OF/Reserve person these days.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Yeah, but our seat is overstaffed. Even with a OF line, I make do with swapping/dropping/grabbing from regular opentime window.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Overstaffed in LA?
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
The CA seat. Oh yes. (FOs, no).
August (one of the busiest months) 79 leftover pilots and 14 rsv lines = 64 pilots on reserve. Every single day will be green.
64 rsvs for 163 lines is darn near 40% rsv coverage.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Thats kind of an anomaly until LAX becomes all Boeing right? Enjoy it while it lasts!!
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
So what they routinely do for LAX CAs, is create SEA, ANC, PDX, and/or SFO trips into LA by DH front and back sides. And ta da, it’s a LAX trip and you now covered a different base.
This month I swapped into 2 trips that are ANC trips. One starts with a FC deadhead to ANC and overnight. #winning.
Our commuters don’t complain because they swap into those trips. DHs on both ends? They commute from their home straight to first operating city, and cut out of DH on end side.
This month I swapped into 2 trips that are ANC trips. One starts with a FC deadhead to ANC and overnight. #winning.
Our commuters don’t complain because they swap into those trips. DHs on both ends? They commute from their home straight to first operating city, and cut out of DH on end side.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
It's been a grind at the mothership so far. But I know what I signed up for. Can't imagine being overstaffed.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
NO! Then it’s even worse!
Estimating 195 lines with 293 total LAX Boeing CAs. Now you’re talking about ~90-100 leftover pilots and maybe 15-20 OF lines. 70-80 rsvs going forward. Every single day will be green.
LAX Boeing CA is, and will be, overstaffed for a while to come. I’m early 2012 hire and I will be back on reserve (involuntarily). Whereas in all the other bases, I’d be at 51-65% and solidly a lineholder.
LA, I’ll be 77%.
Can’t complain, I know what I signed up for (though to be fair, the airline I signed up for doesn’t exist now).
