New "Pro-Pilot" Scam

Hmmm I suppose it is true that if I didn't care about your opinions I would not find them discouraging. Nevertheless I have always known that flying for a living is mostly driven by passion and not by any rational thought about money or a sustainable career progression. But it's also this passion for flying that can drive us into financial ruin and relationship suicide that makes questioning this career as a whole important. However with so many ups, downs, and sideways that is the aviation industry I would think that we could all empathize with each other and give a little encouragement. I'm not advocating that information about the realities of the job be withheld from new pilots. But I just think that the constant posts of negativity whether or not they are justified just brings everyone down as a whole.
 
Michael, don't you think a big reason for people not wanting to get their PPL is cost? What does a PPL run these days 10 grand? Most kids probably couldn't work a summer job and pay for flight training. They decide that if they're going to do it, it will be as an investment. When every flight is costing them in the 150-300 dollar range I'm sure they start to sweat and say, "Is this really worth it?" I did, luckily I had my Dad who may be the luckiest pilot in the industry to look up to.

It seems like if training costs go up much higher carriers might have to start looking into Ab Initial training.

Actually, for students JUST getting their PPL, it is around $6000-$8000.

Michael
 
I'm a long time reader of the Forums and I have to say that the consistantly negative posts have made me take a step back. Hence I didn't go to ATP at the last minute. But Surreal it seems to me out of the hundreds of posts that I have read from you I have seen mostly negative/sarcastic posts that you say is a "dose or reality" that for whatever reason you seem intent on shoving down people's throats? for someone that says he enjoys the profession you sure do have large cash of opinions that honestly are more discouraging than informative.

:yeahthat:
 
Nevertheless I have always known that flying for a living is mostly driven by passion and not by any rational thought about money or a sustainable career progression.
]

Oh Contraire, mon frere, unless you mean a passion for doing a reasonably interesting and fun job, traveling a lot, not having an immediate supervisor breathing down my neck, and making a halfway decent living in the process. The "cool" factor is icing.

The problem is a lot of people seem to be extremely deluded regarding the ratio of cool/just-another-job. I went in with my eyes (mostly) open and I'm not yet bitter to the point of apoplexy, but one of the reasons my eyes were open was that I had the opportunity to read the experiences of other pilots on the internet, even way back in the Dark Ages ('00 or so). I managed to sift the dross out and got a reasonable picture of what I could expect (insofar as there is such a thing). And I assure you, people weren't a whole lot more complimentary back then. I think maybe you're all underestimating our young Padwan Learners. They can read, analyze, and make rational decisions.

I fail to see what's problematic or "dangerous" about young pilots getting to read what older pilots have to say about being a pilot. I thought that was the whole point. The Truth Shall Set You Free, etc etc.
 
All I know is I'm back in the cube during the day (reserve at night) and even though the money it is nothing close to as fun as being an airline pilot. At ASA the days go by fast. In the cube 1 minute feels like an hr:banghead:
 
Hmmm I suppose it is true that if I didn't care about your opinions I would not find them discouraging. Nevertheless I have always known that flying for a living is mostly driven by passion and not by any rational thought about money or a sustainable career progression. But it's also this passion for flying that can drive us into financial ruin and relationship suicide that makes questioning this career as a whole important. However with so many ups, downs, and sideways that is the aviation industry I would think that we could all empathize with each other and give a little encouragement. I'm not advocating that information about the realities of the job be withheld from new pilots. But I just think that the constant posts of negativity whether or not they are justified just brings everyone down as a whole.


Don't sweat it man. There is a wealth of information available on this site. There are a lot of guys giving advice. Some have years upon years of experience and then there are those who aren't even off of probation at their first airline job. You choose who to listen to, and take it all with a grain of salt. My advice on getting advice is to find someone who has industry experience under their belt and speak with them face to face. JC is a great way to set up an introduction just like that.
 
Allow me the opportunity to address the insinuation that I no longer like flying (and am presumably a coward for not getting out), or that I am using this message board and others like it in order to stage a mass brainwashing of would-be professional pilots.

Let's start with the first.

A man who hates flying does not continue to pursue it following furlough after furlough for more than a decade.

A man who hates flying does not move himself and his family time and time again in pursuit of a "stable", "long term", flying career.

A man who hates flying does not spend his precious free time participating in Aviation message boards, reading aviation publications, or taking his son to the airport to watch airplanes. It just does not happen.

The fact of the matter is that since I took my first flying lesson in 1988 I have lived, breathed, and slept aviation. I soloed before I got my drivers license. I had a commercial multi-engine before I had a high school diploma.

I was a CFI for an aviation university long before I held a degree from that university.

I started down the path towards an airline pilot profession when that path had no short-cuts. Knowing full well that no turboprop regional (there were no such thing as RJs) would touch a pilot with less than 1500 TT and 500 ME I started building time as a Flight Instructor. But not satisfied merely to be a primary instructor, I earned a CFII, MEI, and passed the written tests for AGI and IGI.

I became an aircraft dispatcher. --- all before the age of 23.

These are not the actions of someone who is not passionately in love with Aviation.

I flew freight in dilapidated Bonanzas and Cessna 402s with no radar, no ice protection throughout the Southeast, five nights a week in weather that those airplanes were never designed to fly in. Bullied by management and pressured by peers I built the experience and wisdom that taught me when to say "No more", the consequences be damned.

I flew 10 legs a day with no autopilot and not even the luxury of a cockpit door in a Jetstream 3100. I was based in JST where I lived in a row-house with 5 other pilots...and where some strange orange fungus that could not be killed lived on the wall!

I moved to Atlanta to fly for an LCC... because shiny jet syndrome had me firmly in it's grip...and those Turkish Air and British Midland DC9s looked damned shiny to me. Less than six months later I was furloughed.

Did I give up? Of course not. Aviation was all I ever wanted. I was young, ambitious, and had plenty of time. I went BACK to that regional to the BOTTOM of the seniority list again. Is that the action of someone who should leave the industry?

After 3 years at a major airline as a blockholder on a DC9 and 737 I was furloughed again... and went BACK to yet ANOTHER regional and to the bottom of the seniority list sitting side-by-side with extraordinarily low-time pilots and finding out that my experience was worth exactly nothing. When that commuter threatened furlough I interviewed with and was hired by yet ANOTHER commuter. I moved my family to Cincinnati for the privilege of making less than $30,000/year AGAIN at the bottom of the list and with nearly 8000 TT once again sitting alongside pilots who barely had enough experience to obtain an ATP.

When the opportunity arose I moved my family to the deep south to CONTINUE pursuit of this career. Not because I had to. I could have given up long ago, but because I wanted to. Every choice I made in this career was based upon a love of aviation and a love of this profession. It is EASY to make those choices on the way up your career ladder.... making them on the way back down is considerably harder.

Questioning my allegience to this profession is absurd. I have had a passion for the art and science of flying for 20 years now. It is remarkable to me that it has been that long and that I still love the sound of engines spooling up as I push up the power. I love that moment after a slow rotation when the rumbling of wheels on pavement gives way to the smoothness of flight. I love to watch the sunlight and shadow play upon cloud formations that look like mountains, valleys, and even caverns. I love the challenge of a well executed approach and the combination of skill, experience, and luck it takes to land an airplane so smoothly that the only indication you are on the ground is the extension of the autospoilers.

I love airplanes more than just about anything. What I do NOT love, is the static -- the "noise" that disrupts that dream. Noise caused by inept management, greedy unions, and pilots who are in such a hurry to step on one another to achieve their own career goals that they irrepairably damage the profession in the process. Noise caused by furloughs and dreams interupted.

What the people who come to this website and to others like it must realize is that the decisions they are making today are no different than those I made a decade or more ago. In many ways we are all tossed around by the sea of fate, and regardless of which regional you choose, whether or not you decide to take an RJ transition course or fly freight in a C210, whether you fly for GoJets or an overseas charter company -- it won't matter.

Two decades from now even the youngest of you will have married and perhaps had children. You will be saddled with a mortgage and a car payment and the shine will have worn from that aviation job. You will look at your life and question the decisions you made that brought you to where you are. You will ask yourself how you can improve your life... will a new job, more money, more days off make things better? How can you spend more time with family and less time in fleabag hotels? These are the lessons of Jetcareers and websites like it. What is the ultimate goal of the aviation job? To fulfill your passion for aviation? To satisfy a little boy's dream? Of course... but at the end of the day it is a means to an end. Putting food on the table and allowing you to spend time with your family.

So do I love aviation? Nobody -- absolutely NOBODY would go through 3 commuters, and LCC, a major, and a corporate flight department if they didn't love it.

So on to your second question. Am I using this site and ones like it to brainwash the next generation of pilots?

That is pure sophomoric idiocy and barely deserves a response. It is absurd to believe that pilots are visiting this message board in order to brainwash a generation of weak-minded pilots into abandoning their dreams in the hopes that one day compensation might improve as a result. If you want mentors to continue to visit this website and share with you their experiences and their knowledge, then you'll have to learn to take the good with the bad.

This career has left me with a decent house, a couple of cars, and enough money to put food on the table. I've never asked anything more of it. I am still anxious for every trip. I love it from the moment the cabin door closes to the moment I open it again. But if you want me to tell you that it has been easy or that your luck will be better than mine, then it's not going to happen. It's been a rough road and isn't likely to get any better. If i'm lucky i'll find another job quickly if and when this one goes away. Because the one thing i've learned is that there is no such thing as an aviation career -- just your next aviation job.:banghead:
 
Yet again, Zap comes through with an eloquently written, wonderfully insightful post. Thanks for sharing your experience here, Zap....be it good, bad or indifferent....I (and many others) appreciate it. :)

I'd much rather hear from you than some 1st year regional FO who tells you to take a hike! ;)
 
Weird. Pissed off users and not one reported post. Am I supposed to have ESP over here in Holland or something?
 
Weird. Pissed off users and not one reported post. Am I supposed to have ESP over here in Holland or something?

Why must pissed off users report something if they feel it can be handled appropriately?

The thread has been going fine, hope it can continue.
 
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