New "Pro-Pilot" Scam

[CoffeeIcePapers]

I can think of two people that post on this message board that did walk away from the industry. I think the best way to get the best of both worlds is to just wait for a job you actually enjoy, instead of jumping on the first jet you get. It baffles me how someone can see their payscale listed on a website, take the job, and then complain about the pay.

 

[surreal1221]

Because pay is everything right? Further, mind providing some quotes to verify the members who you see as complaining about the pay?

Not location?

Not commutability?

Not union or non-union?

Or any other assortment of personal decision factors that no one on a message board online needs to know, or give a damn about.

Right? We all "jump" for that first Jet job. . .it's just that simple, right?

The merits of the thread were being discussed just miraculously. . .no telling where it will end up now.

 

[Michael95U]

How cute. (towards the thread at whole)

Michael,

I would much rather have someone decide PRIOR to investing a couple thousand dollars that they realize the industry, and the profession, will not satisfy them than have them all pissed off at the world that they spent this large sum of money on flight training that won't satisfy them. That is, while a negative for the training industry, a positive for the profession and industry overall. If JetCareers, or AirlinePilotCentral, or even *gasp* FlightInfo, or StudentPilot.com causes it, great - the forums are serving their part in guiding people along.

Also realize, that those of us who came to those very forums a few years ago and are enjoying our profession, perhaps hating the industry, but enjoying it (the profession) nonetheless.

Take the good with the bad, and if someone decides they don't want to make the investment. Tough titties, you're a business owner and you don't need me to tell you this. . .but deal with it.

But it used to be that people would get into this at the Private Pilot level for the FUN OF IT and THEN decide to make it a career. No one does that anymore and a lot has to do with dissent on the forums. Why get into flying, even at the GA level, when airline pilots hate their jobs and tell people not to even consider it? I mean c'mon. How many posts have we seen where airline pilots hate their job AND hate flying?

Michael

 

[surreal1221]

I suppose my friend, but I know many people who are working on their PPL. Not to go and do this silly game for a living, but to enjoy GA.

And you know what, a number of them are on this very forum.

Airline pilots hating their jobs and hating flying? Sure, they exist. I for one, enjoy my job a great deal. I on the other hand am able to recognize with a critical mind the challenges that the profession is currently struggling through and that some significant work needs to be done to improve the profession beyond what it currently is. That doesn't mean I hate my job, and when someone else says it, it doesn't mean they hate it either.

I know it's much easier to just say "Oh, he hates his job," instead of reading what is actually being said. Emotions and all.

Yes, a number of us have suggested that those who are about to get a loan for 60K+ to perhaps reconsider. They (the loan taking out crowd) have no clue what type of financial trouble they are getting themselves in. Now if someone has a large amount of cash, or educational benefits from years of service in the military, and they can make the smart financial decision in not taking out a huge loan for 100% of the cost of training, then rock on. . .knock yourselves out. Even go-to one of those places with a shiny CRJ simulator that is professing about not wanting people to get their PPL just to simply go into the profession. More power to ya.

 

[wrxpilot]

But it used to be that people would get into this at the Private Pilot level for the FUN OF IT and THEN decide to make it a career. No one does that anymore and a lot has to do with dissent on the forums. Why get into flying, even at the GA level, when airline pilots hate their jobs and tell people not to even consider it? I mean c'mon. How many posts have we seen where airline pilots hate their job AND hate flying?

Michael

The majority of students I taught were just doing the PPL and/or IA just for fun or some other non-aviation related business reasons. They could care less what some airline pilot thought about flying, it was totally outside of their situation. It seems like you're geared more towards the career end of things, which would obviously make a big difference. But foreign career student training still seems to be going strong, so perhaps that's another avenue you could explore? I'm sure you've thought of that, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

I have to agree with surreal. It's better that people have a solid understanding of what they're getting into before they begin their training. I first started looking at the aviation industry as a career around 2001/2002. I then started flight training in 2004. Talk about crappy times to want to be a pilot! Nobody was hiring, and there was nothing but complaining out on the msg boards - that is nothing new, trust me. But I knew it was something I wanted to do and continued on. At the same time, I had a backup career and did all of my training as cheap as possible. I have to say those decisions worked out pretty well for me.

There are some people here that want to justify making drastic decisions and going into lots of debt for a questionable career. When they hear negative stories, perhaps it forces them to consider some of the major mistakes they've made (or are about to make) along the way. They may not be willing to do that kind of instrospection, so instead they get mad at those in the industry reporting bad news. Perhaps instead they should use some of these stories as a worst case "what if?" and plan accordingly. If you really have the passion for this, it doesn't mean giving up on it.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

No one does that anymore and a lot has to do with dissent on the forums. Why get into flying, even at the GA level, when airline pilots hate their jobs and tell people not to even consider it?

Exactly. And that's what the "scammers" want to happen.

We've gotta "take it back".

 

[Boris Badenov]

Michael: I'm pretty confused. Are you suggesting that guys have an obligation to your business to add "but hey, I'm sure someone else has had a great time and made it to delta in four years...and you could be him!" at the end of their tale of woe? The whiners are expressing their frustration. The koolaide-drinkers are expressing their optimism. In the middle dwell the rest of us. When I was a kid looking to fly I had crusty captains tell me that I would be thrice-divorced, hate my life, and live in a hotel. I had dewy-eyed cargopups tell me that they were orgasmic every second of every day by virtue of simply getting to...FLY. And everything in between.

What exactly is being appealed to here? Are we looking for someone to "cull out" the "wrong thinking" posts?

Lloyd is saying, I think, that if people were as miserable as they sound on this board, they'd quit. Maybe so, maybe not. It's an opinion. He posted it. People read it and developed an opinion about his opinion. Other people are saying "this industry sucks, witness this sucky thing that happened to me". Still other people are saying "this industry rocks, you get to FLY for a LIVING!@". Are any of them "wrong"? Do either of them need an editor? We're all big boys and girls here. One presumes that we can read, digest, and make informed decisions. If you can't without editorial assistance, maybe you really SHOULDN'T be a pilot?

PS. Hey Lloyd, when are you coming to STL? I promise if you're not haggard and disgruntled, you will be when I get done with you. If you don't want THEM to know, PM me or write me at MyLastName.mc@gmail

 

[Low&Slow]

That's possible. It's pretty awesome to me - I haven't slept in the snow outside, clutching a machine gun, even once in this industry!

BTDT and still doing it. Worse than that in the snow though, is in the rain in the low thirties...good times (not so much)

 

[Michael95U]

The majority of students I taught were just doing the PPL and/or IA just for fun or some other non-aviation related business reasons. They could care less what some airline pilot thought about flying, it was totally outside of their situation. It seems like you're geared more towards the career end of things, which would obviously make a big difference. But foreign career student training still seems to be going strong, so perhaps that's another avenue you could explore? I'm sure you've thought of that, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

We used to get a good number of "fun-only" pilots (and a lot of them ended up staying in the industry). A good number of them read these forums (and AOPA, Flightinfo, APC, etc). Yeah, our name implies we work the career end, but we still get a number of non-career students. But that number is definitely dwindling, and talking to my colleagues across the country, they agree.

Have we looked into foreign flight training? Sure. We are approved to issue the I-20 for the M1 Visa and we welcome people into that program.

I just think there are a lot of young guys out there who want to get their PPL as kind of the litmus test of, "Do I want to go further?" But when they read the dissent on the message boards, they just decide to buy that motorcycle instead.....

 

[Michael95U]

Michael: I'm pretty confused. Are you suggesting that guys have an obligation to your business to add "but hey, I'm sure someone else has had a great time and made it to delta in four years...and you could be him!" at the end of their tale of woe? The whiners are expressing their frustration. The koolaide-drinkers are expressing their optimism. In the middle dwell the rest of us. When I was a kid looking to fly I had crusty captains tell me that I would be thrice-divorced, hate my life, and live in a hotel. I had dewy-eyed cargopups tell me that they were orgasmic every second of every day by virtue of simply getting to...FLY. And everything in between.

What exactly is being appealed to here? Are we looking for someone to "cull out" the "wrong thinking" posts?

No, I don't think we need to put an end to any posts on either side. What I want to show is:

1) You typically read more about the crappy side of things and not the people out there having a good time enjoying their job.
2) People new to this industry read the crappy side of things (as it is probably 80% of what is posted in regards to the industry) and decide that because there aren't many positive posts, let's abandon this dream of flying.

The bottom line is that potential pilots are impacted by the negativity.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

BTDT and still doing it. Worse than that in the snow though, is in the rain in the low thirties...good times (not so much)

OUCH!

Yeah, 30 degree rain is definitely worse than 20 degree snow!!!

Stay hard, Hard Charger!!

 

[mtsu_av8er]

PS. Hey Lloyd, when are you coming to STL? I promise if you're not haggard and disgruntled, you will be when I get done with you. If you don't want THEM to know, PM me or write me at MyLastName.mc@gmail

LOL - is that a challenge, Marine?

I'll be there on the 22nd.

 

[Boris Badenov]

LOL - is that a challenge, Marine?

I'll be there on the 22nd.

I'm always amazed when the infantry can spell "challenge". Of course if you were really up for a challenge you wouldn't come in town on a night when I have to fly the rubber dogdoo. I guess maybe next time. Unless you're really going to be in town on the night of the 21st but don't want to let on because of what might happen...

 

[mtsu_av8er]

I'm always amazed when the infantry can spell "challenge". Of course if you were really up for a challenge you wouldn't come in town on a night when I have to fly the rubber dogdoo. I guess maybe next time. Unless you're really going to be in town on the night of the 21st but don't want to let on because of what might happen...

Well, I was a reformed infantryman . . . they let me use calibrated tools and everything!!!

I'm actually gonna be there for 4-6 weeks, so you won't be able to come up with enough excuses.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I'm actually gonna be there for 4-6 weeks, so you won't be able to come up with enough excuses.

Dollars to donuts you don't survive two.

PS. 4-6 weeks? Goodness they sure do train you big boy pilots a lot.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Dollars to donuts you don't survive two.

PS. 4-6 weeks? Goodness the sure do train you big boy pilots a lot.

LOL

I have to go back for "special training", since my 200 hours of CRJ time didn't click with my 6-month "Fast Track" program at Gulfstream!!

 

[Boris Badenov]

LOL

I have to go back for "special training", since my 200 hours of CRJ time didn't click with my 6-month "Fast Track" program at Gulfstream!!

Wha...they don't make special exception for the Captain of the Flight Team? anic:

Ok, ok. Back to the subject:

Yeah, I think it's true that you're going to hear a lot more complaints than is really representative of how people feel. It's the nature of a message board. What are you going to post? "I went to work, it was pretty cool, nothing bad happened, and flying an airplane is still pretty awesome." I mean, that describes 95% of my time at work. But it's hard to talk about in a way that seems enlightening or interesting.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with people on the way up seeing the petty frustrations and BS that go along with the job. I trust them to have the good sense to realize that nobody got in to this game because flying sucks.

 

[greaper007]

Michael, don't you think a big reason for people not wanting to get their PPL is cost? What does a PPL run these days 10 grand? Most kids probably couldn't work a summer job and pay for flight training. They decide that if they're going to do it, it will be as an investment. When every flight is costing them in the 150-300 dollar range I'm sure they start to sweat and say, "Is this really worth it?" I did, luckily I had my Dad who may be the luckiest pilot in the industry to look up to.

It seems like if training costs go up much higher carriers might have to start looking into Ab Initial training.

 

[DenverPilot8]

How cute. (towards the thread at whole)

Michael,

I would much rather have someone decide PRIOR to investing a couple thousand dollars that they realize the industry, and the profession, will not satisfy them than have them all pissed off at the world that they spent this large sum of money on flight training that won't satisfy them. That is, while a negative for the training industry, a positive for the profession and industry overall. If JetCareers, or AirlinePilotCentral, or even *gasp* FlightInfo, or StudentPilot.com causes it, great - the forums are serving their part in guiding people along.

Also realize, that those of us who came to those very forums a few years ago and are enjoying our profession, perhaps hating the industry, but enjoying it (the profession) nonetheless.

Take the good with the bad, and if someone decides they don't want to make the investment. Tough titties, you're a business owner and you don't need me to tell you this. . .but deal with it.



I know who you are elsewhere. . .and yet I notice the key word in the second sentence.

about

Hopefully you don't reach that critical crossing point today, or anytime in the near future. But, if you do. . .I know where to find you.

You're an asset to all the forums you're a member of, keep it up.

I'm a long time reader of the Forums and I have to say that the consistantly negative posts have made me take a step back. Hence I didn't go to ATP at the last minute. But Surreal it seems to me out of the hundreds of posts that I have read from you I have seen mostly negative/sarcastic posts that you say is a "dose or reality" that for whatever reason you seem intent on shoving down people's throats? for someone that says he enjoys the profession you sure do have large cash of opinions that honestly are more discouraging than informative.

 

[surreal1221]

I'm a long time reader of the Forums and I have to say that the consistantly negative posts have made me take a step back. Hence I didn't go to ATP at the last minute. But Surreal it seems to me out of the hundreds of posts that I have read from you I have seen mostly negative/sarcastic posts that you say is a "dose or reality" that for whatever reason you seem intent on shoving down people's throats? for someone that says he enjoys the profession you sure do have large cash of opinions that honestly are more discouraging than informative.

I'm a long time reader of the Forums and I have to say that the consistantly negative posts have made me take a step back. Hence I didn't go to ATP at the last minute.

Excellent, I'm glad JC worked for you as it did for me over two years ago.

But Surreal it seems to me out of the hundreds of posts that I have read from you I have seen mostly negative/sarcastic posts that you say is a "dose or reality" that for whatever reason you seem intent on shoving down people's throats?

Dose or reality? Dose of reality perhaps? I don't proclaim that what I say is a situation that everyone, or anyone specifically will encounter. My comments though tend to be suspicious of management, and forward looking towards the stability of the industry - not the profession. I've realized that it is key to keep those two separate in regards to one's expectations.

The profession is great. I enjoy flying, and don't mind the amount of work that is associated with it.

The industry, sucks. Not much any of us can do to change that but hold on, strap down, and allow the trough in the wave to pass us as we float back up the ridge of next approaching tsunami.

for someone that says he enjoys the profession you sure do have large cash of opinions that honestly are more discouraging than informative.

Cache. . .

Why are my opinions discouraging? If they were not informative, you would not allow anything I have said, or for that matter - anyone else who shares these opinions and guidance - to allow it to be discouraging. But, since it is informative, you're able to decipher that they are indeed discouraging. Otherwise you wouldn't have been able to make a decision on if it was encouraging or discouraging.

Nevertheless. . .

JetCareers is an extremely valuable resource, take all of it for what it is worth. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Such is life, and such is life of having to grow up and make a living. Sorry that the things that I and many others say is discouraging, we don't mean to be discouraging, we mean to provide insight into an industry that we are interested in and a profession that we (for the most part, I can't speak for everyone) love.