Need help with some commercial maneuvers.

[shdw]

'Scuse me? If you can show me where in the PTS it says that, I'll stop teaching my students to slip it in, S-turn it, etc. if they need to.

I didn't say you can't

if done by competition standards

but you shouldn't have to if you do the maneuver the way it was intended to be done. When I am not lazy I will go out and grab my book from the car that talks about a competition on this maneuver For 100 bucks 60 years ago the winner was 6 inches past the line the furthest was 2 feet (taildraggers). (This is from the book stick and rudder) Of course our students won't get that good, but they should learn to properly judge their glide. The only thing wrong was the approach to teaching it, those are backup plans not the procedure you should use to do it and 30 degrees thats wrong plain and simple people die from steep turns in the pattern your nuts if you teach that.

Here if you want more from the commercial oral exam guide (you are right the pts doesn't require it and like I said I didn't argue that). Page 9-9 "Its objective is to further develop the judgment in estimating distances and glide ratios,..." The sentence goes on but the point is your working on glide judgment. Getting to 500 feet 1/4 mile and slipping it in every time doesn't show glide judgment it shows a failure of proficient glide judgment. I don't think an examiner can fail you for it, but they might be allowed to if your entire maneuver is steep turns and skids without ever demonstrating glide judgment.

PS This is an emergency training maneuver used for engine out approaches. Would you feel safe as a passenger with a pilot you just signed off doing a power off 180 if he/she has to do 60 degree banks and slips just to get it down when he/she isn't stressed? I sure wouldn't, imagine how that stress would screw them up and you knowing their stall speeds nearly 50 percent higher because they want to do 60 degrees because they have zero ability to properly judge a glide? *cringe*

 

[MikeD]

I didn't say you can't but you shouldn't have to if you do the maneuver the way it was intended to be done. When I am not lazy I will go out and grab my book from the car that talks about a competition on this manuever For 100 bucks 60 years ago the winner was 6 inches past the line the furthest was 2 feet (taildraggers). Of course our students won't get that good, but they should learn to do it w/o all that. The only thing wrong was the approach to teaching it, those are backup plans not the procedure you should use to do it and 30 degrees thats wrong plain and simple people die from steep turns in the pattern your nuts if you teach that.

Here if you want more from the commercial oral exam guide (you are right the pts doesn't require it and like I said I didn't argue that). Page 9-9 "Its objective is to further develop the judgment in estimating distances and glide ratios,..." The sentance goes on but the point is your working on glide judgement. Getting to 500 feet 1/4 mile and slipping it in everytime doesn't show glide judgment it shows a failure of proficient glide judgment. I don't think an examiner can fail you for it, but they might be allowed to if your entire maneuver is steep turns and skids without ever demonstrating glide judgment.

You need to learn that there's more than one way of doing business and not everything works out perfect. Nothings 100% in aviation, correct or incorrect; everything depends. While you're worried about style points and book theories, I would want my students concentrating on making the maneuver happen, and knowing what to do when it's not working out as advertised, for any number of reasons. It's great if it could be accomplished perfect everytime, hitting perfect parameters all around the SFO pattern, but that's not reality. Reality is, you're not going to always be right at the perfect 180 point; you're not going to have perfect winds, perfect runway, etc, etc. Save the competition BS for just that: un-realistic and canned competition purposes. Being able to work the problem as-needed and as variables rapidly change in the real situation where your engine is out (with all the associated stress), is where the good judgement truly comes from. I could give a rats ass if my student is 6 inches past an arbitrary line; I want him/her to be able to survive.

 

[Roger, Roger]

To be fair, a taildragger can actually be easier to land on a point because you can wheel land it, and a little forward stick will make it stick to the runway. I think slips (NOT SKIDS!!!) are perfectly acceptable for hitting a point, and even certainly a necessary tool in the pilot's inventory.

Here is my technique (172).
Abeam touchdown, power idle. Hold altitude while slowing and extending flaps. Once flaps are full, pitch down to hold 75 knots and turn base, unless you have a strong tailwind on base. At this point you're dropping like a rock, but you can very easily see your glide. When on base, evaluate the glide. If you need to, turn direct to the aim point. Otherwise, fly base and turn final. On final, hold 75 until about 50 feet up. Slip as necessary to make the aim point. Aim point should be the top of the numbers/first stripe after them (~700 feet before) if you are aiming to hit the 1000' markers. On reaching the aim point, flare until you are over the touchdown point, then allow the airplane to sink GENTLY to the runway (assuming you've done everything right and are now slow enough to not land flat).

 

[Blackhawk]

I didn't say you can't but you shouldn't have to if you do the maneuver the way it was intended to be done. When I am not lazy I will go out and grab my book from the car that talks about a competition on this manuever For 100 bucks 60 years ago the winner was 6 inches past the line the furthest was 2 feet (taildraggers). Of course our students won't get that good, but they should learn to do it w/o all that. The only thing wrong was the approach to teaching it, those are backup plans not the procedure you should use to do it and 30 degrees thats wrong plain and simple people die from steep turns in the pattern your nuts if you teach that.

Here if you want more from the commercial oral exam guide (you are right the pts doesn't require it and like I said I didn't argue that). Page 9-9 "Its objective is to further develop the judgment in estimating distances and glide ratios,..." The sentance goes on but the point is your working on glide judgement. Getting to 500 feet 1/4 mile and slipping it in everytime doesn't show glide judgment it shows a failure of proficient glide judgment. I don't think an examiner can fail you for it, but they might be allowed to if your entire maneuver is steep turns and skids without ever demonstrating glide judgment.

1. This is not a competition maneuver and there is no mention of this maneuver being for competition in any PTS or FAA publication. Glide judgement is getting the airplane where you want it and not coming up short. The intent is to give pilots the skills necessary to put the airplane down where they want in an engine failure situation. As a matter of fact there are airplanes out there used for practical tests that don't have flaps, so you must slip it in- that or you are in danger of coming in too low if you misjudge the winds. While what you talk about is great for competition, it has a negative carry over in the real world.
2. Very few accidents in the NTSB data base from turns greater than 30 degrees in the traffic pattern that I have seen.

 

[shdw]

I never said you couldn't slip I said you should be able to learn to do it right with slips as a backup. Certainly you can and should know how to slip and be able to judge when it is necessary but you shouldn't be dependent on it and you shouldn't be doing steep turns in the pattern to make it either. Which is why i said this:

Power-off 180 in the Arrow, Start your turn to the numbers as soon as you cut the power. You will have to exceed 30 degrees in the turn. Transition into a forward slip on base to final and loose the excess altitude (you will be high). As you cross the threshold, round-out and and there you go.

was incorrect.

 

[Roger, Roger]

As long as AoA is kept < critical, you won't stall. No matter how steep you bank. I use steep turns (45°) often in the pattern. I also know the limits of the aircraft I fly, and am able to avoid stalling them.

There are perfectly legit reasons for keeping bank below 30° in the pattern. One is maneuvering for a circle from an approach in IMC...I can only imagine how disorienting it would be to be crankin' and bankin' while doing that at night.

 

[shdw]

This is not a competition maneuver

My fault for not explaining this but I know it is not a competition maneuver. The point of that story was how good people were at doing this years ago and why the maneuver originated. They were good at it because they had engine failures much more often and had to know how to do it right. This was an aircraft sales thing not actually pilots coming to compete, just people that owned this aircraft anyone there could partake. It is a glide judgment maneuver and you should at least have a basic ability to judge your glide and should not require a slip to land every single time especially in an Arrow! Sure you won't get it right every time but to never get it right and always need a slip or steep turns or s-turns isn't teaching your student anything about glide judgment.

As long as AoA is kept < critical,

I would like to know what training airplane you fly that has an angle of attack indicator? In an emergency stress goes up your student (if he even knew to begin with) might forget that he is putting increased load on the aircraft in his/her steep turn which is causing him/her to fly at a higher AoA thus the stall speed might be 60 instead of 45 and they stall because they forgot this. >30 degrees in the pattern = dangerous sure you can do it but why in the heck should you EVER need to unless you screwed something else up in the first place?

Simply put load goes up = aircraft flies at a higher AoA = stall speed increases and the only instrument we have in our aircrafts today to judge AoA attack is the airspeed indicator. So the steeper the turn the higher the stall speed.

PS I for one think it is rediculous that trainer aircraft don't have AoA indicators but hey maybe I'm crazy.

 

[Roger, Roger]

I would like to know what training airplane you fly that has an angle of attack indicator? In an emergency stress goes up your student (if he even knew to begin with) might forget that he is putting increased load on the aircraft in his/her steep turn which is causing him/her to fly at a higher AoA thus the stall speed might be 60 instead of 45 and they stall because they forgot this.

It's called the stall warning horn. In a Cessna with the air powered horn, you get plenty of warning. In fact, if you are using 30 degree banks at Vglide (65) you will hear the stall warning horn whispering at you quite well.

 

[shdw]

It's called the stall warning horn. In a Cessna with the air powered horn, you get plenty of warning. In fact, if you are using 30 degree banks at Vglide (65) you will hear the stall warning horn whispering at you quite well.

It works like the gear warning horn right? The one that pilots listen to for 2 minutes or so in the pattern till they here the metal grinding on the belly of their aircraft. These have happened w/o emergency situations just from busy patterns imagine the increased stress of an emergency how easy it might be to ignore that little horn. The only difference in the gear example is the stall kills them and the belly landing just makes them look stupid.

 

[MikeD]

It works like the gear warning horn right? The one that pilots listen to for 2 minutes or so in the pattern till they here the metal grinding on the belly of their aircraft. These have happened w/o emergency situations just from busy patterns imagine the increased stress of an emergency how easy it might be to ignore that little horn. The only difference in the gear example is the stall kills them and the belly landing just makes them look stupid.

Your logic is akin to trying to cure the headache by cutting off the head.

Bank angle is no problem if you keep it coordinated. Don't go overboard, but 30 degrees isn't some magical wall that if you go steeper in the pattern, you instantly die. Again, training only to 30 degrees is negative training, since while it may teach a nice looking SFO pattern, it doesn't address the "what if's" and what you must do when you encounter them. Know the limits, fly the plane accordingly. Something you're not remembering is "it depends". IT always depends. Depends where your landing area is, etc. 30 degrees may not work to get setup. Teach guys to fly the plane, not meet strict parameters that may not work in every situation. 45 degrees or more may be needed to get setup depending where your touchdown point is, for example. Be flexible.

What's the first part of any EP sequence?

-Maintain aircraft control.

-Analyze the situation and take appropriate action.

-Land as soon as possible.

If you don't do the first part, it doesn't matter if you're at 30 degrees or 60 degrees; you'll likely not survive (you might, since nothing is 100%).

Even on a circling approach coming off an instrument penetration, there were many times I had to exceed 30 degrees just to stay within my obstacle clearance distance during the maneuver while circling to land. That's what the plane require at times, so fly the plane and make it happen; train to fly the plane as reqired safely, not to arbitrary numbers or to "look good". 30 degrees would've had be outside the protected airspace had I restricted myself.

 

[intern_mike]

shdw, are you serious man? Have you ever 180'd an Arrow? You are simulating an emergency which means doing whatever it takes to land safely and within the first third of the runway. Bank angles and well judged pat me on the back glides are of no concern. Bottom line, you're in a plane that falls like a rock and the runway is slowly falling behind. The safe and acceptable way to do it is the way I described.

Directly from my CFI notes:

180 Power-off Approach and Landing

Reference the Airplane Flying Handbook (AFH), FAA-H-8083-3A, pages 8-21 to 8-24. This paper is intended to give some insight for a deeper understanding of the maneuver.

This is a judgement and skill sharpener. Closing the throttle abeam the landing spot (and extending the landing gear in the Arrow) requires an immediate, precise acquisition of best glide speed. Strive to gain a good understanding of what various wind speeds will do to the glide path and plan the size of the pattern accordingly. Rate of descent and rate of forward progress (ground speed) combine to produce the angle of descent. Strong winds may require a downwind position closer abeam as well as an almost immediate turn to base and final.

Any available flap setting the pilot determines to be necessary would be acceptable, but consider that if you are high, 10 degrees of flaps provides very little drag. Be aware that setting additional flaps too early can be a real detriment to reaching your landing point. A forward slip to dissipate extra altitude on final—although not the most favored technique—is always an option.

Trim for best glide for the initial portion of the approach and decide how much speed to carry into the flare (based on your flap setting) in order to negotiate the flare and touchdown smoothly. A last minute, abrupt flare could cause an accelerated stall and must be avoided. On the other hand, a smooth flare started too early may run out of airspeed before the sink rate can be arrested. Aircraft control, judgement and timing are critical and intelligent practice will help develop them.

 

[MikeD]

shdw, are you serious man? Have you ever 180'd an Arrow? You are simulating an emergency which means doing whatever it takes to land safely and within the first third of the runway. Bank angles and well judged pat me on the back glides are of no concern. Bottom line, you're in a plane that falls like a rock and the runway is slowly falling behind. The safe and acceptable way to do it is the way I described.

Directly from my CFI notes:

180 Power-off Approach and Landing

Reference the Airplane Flying Handbook (AFH), FAA-H-8083-3A, pages 8-21 to 8-24. This paper is intended to give some insight for a deeper understanding of the maneuver.

This is a judgement and skill sharpener. Closing the throttle abeam the landing spot (and extending the landing gear in the Arrow) requires an immediate, precise acquisition of best glide speed. Strive to gain a good understanding of what various wind speeds will do to the glide path and plan the size of the pattern accordingly. Rate of descent and rate of forward progress (ground speed) combine to produce the angle of descent. Strong winds may require a downwind position closer abeam as well as an almost immediate turn to base and final.

Any available flap setting the pilot determines to be necessary would be acceptable, but consider that if you are high, 10 degrees of flaps provides very little drag. Be aware that setting additional flaps too early can be a real detriment to reaching your landing point. A forward slip to dissipate extra altitude on final—although not the most favored technique—is always an option.

Trim for best glide for the initial portion of the approach and decide how much speed to carry into the flare (based on your flap setting) in order to negotiate the flare and touchdown smoothly. A last minute, abrupt flare could cause an accelerated stall and must be avoided. On the other hand, a smooth flare started too early may run out of airspeed before the sink rate can be arrested. Aircraft control, judgement and timing are critical and intelligent practice will help develop them.

Now I can see doing your best to plan/perform a flameout approach where you don't have to use any of the corrective maneuvers mentioned; that's all well and good. BUT, knowing when a situation will require them, and how to safely incorporate them into correcting a situation you could easily find yourself in (high/low/fast/slow, etc) is equally as important and completely correct.

 

[shdw]

Power-off 180 in the Arrow, Start your turn to the numbers as soon as you cut the power. You will have to exceed 30 degrees in the turn. Transition into a forward slip on base to final and loose the excess altitude (you will be high). As you cross the threshold, round-out and and there you go.

Then from your notes:

A forward slip to dissipate extra altitude on final—although not the most favored technique—is always an option.

I really don't know what else to say on that you went from the notes saying you can but it isn't favored to your definition of you should transition to a forward slip. All I said is thats the wrong way to do it your learning to judge your glide not to use every eratic maneuver in the book to land on your spot. Ultimately this maneuver performed properly should not need slips, dives, extremely slow flight (which is actually better for loosing altitude than the dive especially in an Arrow), s-turns, or any other contraption you can come up with to get down fast (this includes pulling the flap handle back hard for that extra 2 or 3 degrees). Those measures are backups and not what the maneuver is designed to teach.

Yes I flew all my complex time up until my CFI in an Arrow.

MikeD we will have to agree to disagree here I see no need for anyone to exceed 30 degrees of bank in a low altitude situation. Coordinated or not your load goes up and your stall speed goes up, uncoordinated just exaserbates this and makes it spin prone. Not to mention we are talking about a VFR emergency engine out precision landing approach not an IFR circling to land approach. For a power off 180 there is no need and for any VFR landing there is no need to be over 30 degrees in the pattern period.

He is a comercial student he should be able to plan an approach to landing from 1000 feet and land without exceeding 30 degrees and without requiring a slip to land EVERY time he does the approach. Sure hes human he will need to sometimes but to teach the approach in this fashion where you go steep bank DW - base then base - final with required slipping is just plain wrong and completely fails to teach the fundamental basics of this maneuver. . .THE GLIDE!

Oh almost forgot, I agree with your notes just not with your initial assesment of how to do this maneuver

 

[intern_mike]

FACT: it is not possible to perform a 180 in the Arrow from pattern altitude (1000` AGL and 1000`out) without exceeding 30 degrees of bank. You will overshoot base to final EVERY TIME. As far as the slip, I can correct for being high, I can't correct for being short.

 

[MikeD]

MikeD we will have to agree to disagree here I see no need for anyone to exceed 30 degrees of bank in a low altitude situation. Coordinated or not your load goes up and your stall speed goes up, uncoordinated just exaserbates this and makes it spin prone. Not to mention we are talking about a VFR emergency engine out precision landing approach not an IFR circling to land approach. For a power off 180 there is no need and for any VFR landing there is no need to be over 30 degrees in the pattern period.

You do realize there are planes that regularly exceed 30 degrees of bank just to fly a normal pattern, don't you? How do you think an overhead pattern is flown without making it a 747 pattern? I've been exceeding 30 degrees bank on downwind to final for over 12 years in overhead patterns. If you don't, you WILL overshoot; especially with a 2000AGL TPA. Does this need to be done with ALL aircraft? Of course not. But you're demonstrating your lack of knowledge of what lies beyond the "Piper Arrow" world and that your "one solution fits all situations" dogma is completely flawed.

You also completely missed the point of what I was referring to with the circle to land example; likely because your myopic vision of one-way-to-do-business. So I'll spell it out to you: Fly the airplane. If I performed 30 degrees bank-only in a plane that was approach Category E in a circle to land (circling speed of 210 average); I'd be hell and gone in regards to my obstacle clearance zone. That's the only point. I had to do what was necessary in that plane and situation.

Similarly in a flameout pattern, you do what's necessary. Yes bank increases load, but that does not mean you instantly die. Fly the freaking airplane! Keep it coordinated and you're fine. Everything costs something.....you try and overbank and stay level, the loading may catch up to you; so of course if you bank it up (coordinated), you'll have to get the nose down to compensate. Too high? Forward slip is one answer......banking it up if you still need to turn is another; and it works. Again, in the patterns and planes I flew, VFR patterns were regularly 60 degrees downwind to final; you don't, you WILL overshoot. Get out of the restrictive mindset you have; you're doing your students a disservice with it.

Have you had to fly a true flameout approach in your career? I'd love to see you in the real situation; unfamiliar field, winds not to favor, pattern position not optimal, trees or powerlines at the approach end of the field/landing point, visibility not great, stressed out, on fire, and/or any of the myriad number of monkey wrenches that can be thrown at you; and we'll see how pretty and parameter-specific your pattern is.

Your inflexibility isn't going to serve you well someday, partner. It may even kill you.

Take that to the bank.

 

[SteveC]

...I see no need for anyone to exceed 30 degrees of bank in a low altitude situation. Coordinated or not your load goes up and your stall speed goes up...

Since you've said this twice I'm going to address it quickly (Mike already mentioned it in his last post but I want to stress the point). G load and stall speed only go up if the pilot increases back pressure during the turn to try to hold altitude. I was taught during primary training how to let the nose fall during a steep turn to not load up the airplane, and it is a skill that is still useful today. It is very much a seat-of-the-pants maneuver where you let the trim of the aircraft help dictate its vertical flight path, and use the feeling of g's (or lack of g's) to confirm the proper attitude. One trick that I learned is to make the turn with just your fingertips on the yoke so you only turn, not pull. The nose will drop to maintain AOA (related question: does a trimmed airplane try to hold an airspeed or an AOA?). In many ways it is similar to learning to use rudder in a turn - when the pilot learns what it looks like, and especially what it feels like, it becomes second nature. To this day when I feel g's as PNF it catches my attention and I'm automatically being more aware of what is happening (yep, it's very nice to have an AOA gauge now ).

I was taught how to do those descending steep turns precisely because my instructor (an old salty one BTW) didn't want me doing a classic stall/spin turning base-to-final scenario. He knew that there are times when you need to tighten things up to make a turn (see Mike's examples above), and that there are many reasons for having to do so. Some may be pilot error earlier in the approach, some might be equipment dictated, some might be terrain induced, but learning how to do it the right way is having just one more trick in the bag (as Mike likes to say). Your point about a pilot forgetting that a steep turn increases stall speed just reiterates the importance of learning aircraft "feel" and practicing these kind of maneuvers, for the same reason that we practice sight picture on landing - we want it to be second nature and not something that they have to actively think about when bad things are happening.

 

[shdw]

FACT: it is not possible to perform a 180 in the Arrow from pattern altitude (1000` AGL and 1000`out) without exceeding 30 degrees of bank. You will overshoot base to final EVERY TIME. As far as the slip, I can correct for being high, I can't correct for being short.

I don't know what Arrow you are flying in but if your ever in the NJ area you look me up and I'll do spot landings w/you all day with 20 degrees of bank if you'd like. It can be done, just because you were unable to doesn't mean it isn't possible.

MikeD - Again VFR in GA aircraft in an emergency. If you get in on the ground on or off a field under control your survival rate is nearly 100 percent. If you loose control for any number of reasons (those wonderful monkey wrenches your talking about) your survival rate is at best 1 percent. The statistics simply don't lie no matter how long you want to argue them.

I also don't say you cannot ever exceed 30 degrees in the pattern but you shouldn't need to. I bet Mr. Sullenberger didn't apply your bank it more than 30 to try and make it back to the airport and look at how that panned out. One hundred percent control equaled 100 percent survival go figure. In fact (this I am unsure of maybe an airline guy can speak up) but I don't think those guys ever exceed 30 degrees of bank. If I am wrong there sorry but even if so it certainly isn't often and not while low to the ground.

related question: does a trimmed airplane try to hold an airspeed or an AOA?

I am unsure if this was serious or as a joke but it holds AoA not to well mind you since thrust on any aircraft (not t-tail) with centerline thrust has increases/decreased tail effectiveness based on the power setting (for a glide we can ignore this and it works as prescribed). But fact is we are teaching this for an emergency maneuver and when all the psyiological aspects are thown into the mix it is hard enough for pilots to keep the aircraft under control in normal maneuver. Why (knowing that under control is nearly 100 percent survival rate and loss of control is at best 1 percent) would we want them flying it situations that require that much more effort to remember not to do the wrong thing. Remember this we are all human and our natural human instinct up = altitude which unfortunately too many people fall back on in an emergency that starts turning sour for any reason.

 

[JustinA]

FACT: it is not possible to perform a 180 in the Arrow from pattern altitude (1000` AGL and 1000`out) without exceeding 30 degrees of bank. You will overshoot base to final EVERY TIME. As far as the slip, I can correct for being high, I can't correct for being short.

You sure about this? I see it done usually a few times a week. I am going up with a commercial student today, would you like me to video tape it for you??

 

[Roger, Roger]

Since you've said this twice I'm going to address it quickly (Mike already mentioned it in his last post but I want to stress the point). G load and stall speed only go up if the pilot increases back pressure during the turn to try to hold altitude. I was taught during primary training how to let the nose fall during a steep turn to not load up the airplane, and it is a skill that is still useful today. It is very much a seat-of-the-pants maneuver where you let the trim of the aircraft help dictate its vertical flight path, and use the feeling of g's (or lack of g's) to confirm the proper attitude. One trick that I learned is to make the turn with just your fingertips on the yoke so you only turn, not pull. The nose will drop to maintain AOA (related question: does a trimmed airplane try to hold an airspeed or an AOA?). In many ways it is similar to learning to use rudder in a turn - when the pilot learns what it looks like, and especially what it feels like, it becomes second nature. To this day when I feel g's as PNF it catches my attention and I'm automatically being more aware of what is happening (yep, it's very nice to have an AOA gauge now ).

Exactly, Steve. And if you hear the stall horn start to whisper at you, just dip the nose a bit further and all is well.

 

[intern_mike]

How exactly do you loose control when in a turning decent with an airspeed above best glide, which you would have to abandon as you are direct to the numbers?? You are descending which means minimal increased g-load. And a forward slip means zero chance of a stall. Also, how do you justify holding such specific parameters when teaching an emergency maneuver to a specific spot on the ground?? #1 priority in an emergency is to fly the plane. I'd like to see how pretty your 20 degree turns look when there are parallel runways and trees on short final.

FYI: I can "glide" the cherokee in all day, the Arrow is a different animal entirely.