Need help with some commercial maneuvers.

pfitmx15

pfitmx15

Well-Known Member
Hey guys i could use some help. I'm preparing for my checkride for commercial single engine land next week (initial) And have a little bit of trouble with a couple of things...

First I have a little trouble with Lazy eights. My question here is i never seem to get far enough away from the the reference point (power lines) to make it back at the required altitude and speed. Seems like I'm rushed and after coming back down to altitude the speed is not back to normal...Is it OK to just take my time at the start of the maneuver and roll slowly in to it?

Second I seem to have a little difficulty with the power off 180. I'm flying an arrow2 and its just hard for me to judge the rate at which this thing sinks. When you pull the power it falls out of the sky and seem to be making my landing spot good and then all of a sudden i just float too far because i don't want to ram the gear through the wings. Has anyone else ever experienced the way this thing just wants to drop? Any pointers that will help with this or just being able to hit your spot on any landing would really help me out.

Thanks

matt
 
As far as the lazy 8s go for one do not use power lines or roads or other objects directly under you as the place you want to be looking is off the nose of the aircraft. To use roads/power lines or any other object directly under you has you looking out your window which while you will be able to judge bank/climb/descent by that if you practice it enough it will be no where near as reliable as looking directly off the nose. For the arrow I used 21/21 for power setting for the lazy 8 and at the start of the maneuver use more pitch than bank. Pitching slightly faster than banking (to 18-20 degrees nose up) will get you slower so you can sweep through the maneuver properly at the 90 degree point. Remember this maneuver is symmetrical so the first and last 45 degrees tend to be fairly slow and boring while the middle 90 degrees is a little swifter motion. Try doing the whole maneuver with your instruments covered using points in the distance (5-10 miles away) as your 45/90/135 marks.

Is it OK to just take my time at the start of the maneuver and roll slowly in to it?
Click to expand...

It is a "LAZY" 8 so yes it should be started and finished slowly.

As for power off 180s there is no sure fire way to get it right you just need to learn how to judge it properly. With the arrow you have other things you can do to gain/loose altitude if your a little off which I will list but they should not be relied on and for students can be slightly dangerous. If you are short of glide without full flaps you can get into ground effect inches from the ground (dive to get there) and then just before touch down throw in the next and final notch of flaps incremental to get to your point. If your high, well the arrow glides kind of like a rock you should never be high. But, if you find yourself floating over the runway you can take out flaps to set it right down. I still caution either of these and the FAA inspector may even frown upon them depending on how the rest of your flight goes. Aerodynamically they do work and they will increase or decrease your glide, but the point of this maneuver is being able to judge glide properly.

I would recommend going up in the air and finding out the glide angle of your aircraft relative to the horizon. This may not make sense so read it a few times and see if you can get what I mean. When astronomers reference a star in the sky the reference it based on an angle above the horizon because it is precise. Well similarly we can do the same thing with an aircraft, the arrow by my remembrance is somewhere from 12-15 degrees below the horizon. If you discover where this point is you can literally look at and imagine a line the glide amount of degrees below the horizon and anything below that line is in glide range and above it is out of glide range. The best way to discover this would be to have your flight instructor fly for a little bit engine idle and see what that spot is and see if your right pick a point you think is just under that line in the distance and glide to it. If you picked right that point will always stay x degrees below the horizon the entire time you glide to wards in (in a no wind condition).

Furthermore when you are gliding to wards a spot on the runway (on final) if the aim spot is standing still you are going to make it. Any points sliding under the aircraft will be overshot and any points sliding up the windscreen will be out of range. You MUST learn to stabilize your approach attitude and speed to see this properly. So do a few attempts and don't change anything just stabilize and see how it works out. Then if you are consistently undershooting wait a little longer on flaps or gear or bring your pattern in closer but change one thing at a time until you nail it. The whole key to these maneuvers in your commercial course is understanding visual pictures and unfortunately simple things like x degrees below the horizon and glide distances ain't always properly explained.

Good luck and invest in "Emergency Maneuver Training" by Rich Stowell and read the chapter on engine out emergencies for allot more info on stuff like this with pictures and such that may help you better understand this.
 
pfitmx15 said:
Hey guys i could use some help. I'm preparing for my checkride for commercial single engine land next week (initial) And have a little bit of trouble with a couple of things...

First I have a little trouble with Lazy eights. My question here is i never seem to get far enough away from the the reference point (power lines) to make it back at the required altitude and speed. Seems like I'm rushed and after coming back down to altitude the speed is not back to normal...Is it OK to just take my time at the start of the maneuver and roll slowly in to it?


Thanks

matt
Click to expand...

If I read what you wrote correctly, if you are using power lines and crossing the power lines at the start of your lazy 8, you will not necessarily cross back over the power lines when you finish. As a matter of fact the only time this might be the case is in calm winds. This is not an S-turn where you cross over an object on the ground at right angles, it is a maneuver were, at the end of your 180 degree turn you are at your starting altitude and on airspeed. Look through the PTS and the FAA desription of the maneuver in FAA-H8083-3A and you will find no reference to crossing a reference on the ground at right angles. As a matter of fact I find that most pilots perform this maneuver best while using an object in the distance, such as a ridge line.
 
Is it OK to just take my time at the start of the maneuver and roll slowly in to it?
Click to expand...
This is mandatory! It can be tough to be lazy enough sometimes. To me it seems if I can arrive at the 45 degree point with max pitch up and ~15 degrees bank with a constant (very very slow) roll rate leading to it, the rest of the entire maneuver is almost automatic.

Sounds like you just need to adjust that aim-point a little on the landings. When you say:
all of a sudden i just float too far
Click to expand...
, are you within PTS?



* I am not a CFI, or a commercial pilot(yet).;)
 
This tip from an old instructor helped me w/ lazy 8's. Pick your two points some distance out...one on each wing tip. Then take the right wingtip and put it on the left point. I don't focus on the 45 and 135 points as much since this is supposed to be a manuever about smoothness and coordination and focusing on those too much may disrupt the smoothness. If you're not coordinated, it will never work properly.
 
Repeating what others have said...

Rudder, rudder, rudder. Coordination is key for the timing of the bank angles and headings to work out right.

Be lazy when starting and ending each turn, the in between goes a bit quicker.

Pick your point (I only use one) off the wingtip way out by the horizon. That powerline business is crap (IMHO).

Cover the instruments.

Fly by feel and outside references.
 
Hey guys thanks so much for the help!!! This website is such a great resource!!! All of have great points and I cant wait to get back up and try them.

It is a "LAZY" 8 so yes it should be started and finished slowly.

As for power off 180s there is no sure fire way to get it right you just need to learn how to judge it properly. With the arrow you have other things you can do to gain/loose altitude if your a little off which I will list but they should not be relied on and for students can be slightly dangerous. If you are short of glide without full flaps you can get into ground effect inches from the ground (dive to get there) and then just before touch down throw in the next and final notch of flaps incremental to get to your point. If your high, well the arrow glides kind of like a rock you should never be high. But, if you find yourself floating over the runway you can take out flaps to set it right down. I still caution either of these and the FAA inspector may even frown upon them depending on how the rest of your flight goes. Aerodynamically they do work and they will increase or decrease your glide, but the point of this maneuver is being able to judge glide properly.

I would recommend going up in the air and finding out the glide angle of your aircraft relative to the horizon. This may not make sense so read it a few times and see if you can get what I mean. When astronomers reference a star in the sky the reference it based on an angle above the horizon because it is precise. Well similarly we can do the same thing with an aircraft, the arrow by my remembrance is somewhere from 12-15 degrees below the horizon. If you discover where this point is you can literally look at and imagine a line the glide amount of degrees below the horizon and anything below that line is in glide range and above it is out of glide range. The best way to discover this would be to have your flight instructor fly for a little bit engine idle and see what that spot is and see if your right pick a point you think is just under that line in the distance and glide to it. If you picked right that point will always stay x degrees below the horizon the entire time you glide to wards in (in a no wind condition).

Furthermore when you are gliding to wards a spot on the runway (on final) if the aim spot is standing still you are going to make it. Any points sliding under the aircraft will be overshot and any points sliding up the windscreen will be out of range. You MUST learn to stabilize your approach attitude and speed to see this properly. So do a few attempts and don't change anything just stabilize and see how it works out. Then if you are consistently undershooting wait a little longer on flaps or gear or bring your pattern in closer but change one thing at a time until you nail it. The whole key to these maneuvers in your commercial course is understanding visual pictures and unfortunately simple things like x degrees below the horizon and glide distances ain't always properly explained.

Good luck and invest in "Emergency Maneuver Training" by Rich Stowell and read the chapter on engine out emergencies for allot more info on stuff like this with pictures and such that may help you better understand this.
Click to expand...

Very good info...thanks so much.



AP2BRe: Need help with some commercial maneuvers.
Quote:
Is it OK to just take my time at the start of the maneuver and roll slowly in to it?
This is mandatory! It can be tough to be lazy enough sometimes. To me it seems if I can arrive at the 45 degree point with max pitch up and ~15 degrees bank with a constant (very very slow) roll rate leading to it, the rest of the entire maneuver is almost automatic.

Sounds like you just need to adjust that aim-point a little on the landings. When you say: Quote:
all of a sudden i just float too far
, are you within PTS?



* I am not a CFI, or a commercial pilot(yet).;)



Yes Im consistantly within the PTS just every once in awhile i float a little too much...I think thats because this airplane sinks so fast that I feel like I have to really hold the flare to get a good landing where what i should be doing is just letting it land a little harder than normal because its a short field or power off 180


Thanks for all the responses!!!

Matt
 
All the others have good comments and you should really make a list and see what works for you. See what clicks.

I had trouble with Lazy 8's, I went up with a random CFI and his said "pitch, pitch, bank".
A light bulb went off.
You should be roughly max pitch at the 45 and only half of the 30 degrees of bank = pitch , pitch, bank. Do it choppy then put it together in one fluid motion.
I will also repeat, look out in the far distance.
------
I did my commercial and few commercial applicants in the Arrow. It is a rock.
I like that you don't use your flaps as drag devices. Save them for when you might come up short and then pop in the first notch in ground effect to float to your mark.

What have you been using as your touch down mark? The numbers are no good since you will float.
Establish best glide as you have been. I have my students use the Captain Bars (Aiming Point Marking), as their touch down point.
Enter a descent that will allow you to enter ground effect dang near exactly between the numbers and the captain bars. Float to the bars and add the first notch of flaps if needed to extend range.
 
What have you been using as your touch down mark? The numbers are no good since you will float.
Establish best glide as you have been. I have my students use the Captain Bars (Aiming Point Marking), as their touch down point.
Enter a descent that will allow you to enter ground effect dang near exactly between the numbers and the captain bars. Float to the bars and add the first notch of flaps if needed to extend range
Click to expand...

Great point! I have been using the first runway centerline stripe as my aiming point everwhere i go. I like the idea of using the captains bars. Ill try that next time and it will definately give you more leeway for floating.

Thanks for all the help guys.

Matt
 
pfitmx15 said:
Hey guys i could use some help. I'm preparing for my checkride for commercial single engine land next week (initial) And have a little bit of trouble with a couple of things...

First I have a little trouble with Lazy eights. My question here is i never seem to get far enough away from the the reference point (power lines) to make it back at the required altitude and speed. Seems like I'm rushed and after coming back down to altitude the speed is not back to normal...Is it OK to just take my time at the start of the maneuver and roll slowly in to it?

Second I seem to have a little difficulty with the power off 180. I'm flying an arrow2 and its just hard for me to judge the rate at which this thing sinks. When you pull the power it falls out of the sky and seem to be making my landing spot good and then all of a sudden i just float too far because i don't want to ram the gear through the wings. Has anyone else ever experienced the way this thing just wants to drop? Any pointers that will help with this or just being able to hit your spot on any landing would really help me out.

Thanks

matt
Click to expand...

Man I agree the arrow is a rock! You pull that power back that thing is going down more than 1000 FPM.

As far as the lazy 8's go everything should be a nice gentle movement. I slowly roll to 5 degree's, gradually pitch up and do it SLOW. The more you pitch up the more the airplane will want to bank itself so let it do it on its own and just guide it. From the 90 degree point just be level attitude and slowly have a constant bank back to 0. You dont need to rush to be wings level. I could write a paper on this but I just want to emphasize on being smooth and not to rush the maneuver, you have all the time during your check ride. Good luck on your check ride and be sure to do clearing turns on every maneuver
 
Man I agree the arrow is a rock! You pull that power back that thing is going down more than 1000 FPM.

As far as the lazy 8's go everything should be a nice gentle movement. I slowly roll to 5 degree's, gradually pitch up and do it SLOW. The more you pitch up the more the airplane will want to bank itself so let it do it on its own and just guide it. From the 90 degree point just be level attitude and slowly have a constant bank back to 0. You dont need to rush to be wings level. I could write a paper on this but I just want to emphasize on being smooth and not to rush the maneuver, you have all the time during your check ride. Good luck on your check ride and be sure to do clearing turns on every maneuver
Click to expand...

Thanks for the help. I think that the fact that I looked over the "lazy" part of the maneuver is what gave me a little trouble. I just need to slow it down and take my time.

And yes the arrow 2 is a rock...It took me a few landings to get adjusted to it. Overall I like the airplane...."above 100 feet AGL!!!" :laff:

Matt
 
With the lazy 8's, back pressure first then start the turn. I don't use outside references since by the time i find them they are not in the right place. I imagine shooting tracers from the cowl. At max pitch up, relax the yoke and let her drop through just slightly holding it back. A nice smooth arc to max pitch up then almost a 45 degree line to max pitch down. As soon as you fall through the horizon, pull level. Best of luck.

Power-off 180 in the Arrow, Start your turn to the numbers as soon as you cut the power. You will have to exceed 30 degrees in the turn. Transition into a forward slip on base to final and loose the excess altitude (you will be high). As you cross the threshold, round-out and and there you go.
 
Power-off 180 in the Arrow, Start your turn to the numbers as soon as you cut the power. You will have to exceed 30 degrees in the turn. Transition into a forward slip on base to final and loose the excess altitude (you will be high). As you cross the threshold, round-out and and there you go.
Click to expand...
That's just how I do them in a Sierra. Not necessary in the retractable skychicken though.
 
Douglas said:
Max effort?
Click to expand...

It is a maneuver performed in a glider, you fly over the numbers point the nose straight down pull the dive brakes and pull up 20 or so feet from the runway and touchdown. Was joking but I bet the arrow can come close to doing one :)


Power-off 180 in the Arrow, Start your turn to the numbers as soon as you cut the power. You will have to exceed 30 degrees in the turn. Transition into a forward slip on base to final and loose the excess altitude (you will be high). As you cross the threshold, round-out and and there you go.
Click to expand...

This is 100 percent the incorrect way to do power off 180s! It is a precision maneuver which if done by competition standards your not allowed to use slips, tail wagging, s-turns, or any other non normal procedure to land. Learn to do it right period. As for exceeding 30 degrees in the patter shall we discuss load factors effect on stall speed in steep turns at low altitudes resulting in spins? :(
 
shdw said:
I

This is 100 percent the incorrect way to do power off 180s! It is a precision maneuver which if done by competition standards your not allowed to use slips, tail wagging, s-turns, or any other non normal procedure to land. Learn to do it right period. As for exceeding 30 degrees in the patter shall we discuss load factors effect on stall speed in steep turns at low altitudes resulting in spins? :(
Click to expand...
'Scuse me? If you can show me where in the PTS it says that, I'll stop teaching my students to slip it in, S-turn it, etc. if they need to.
 
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