Need advice on 150 day fast track

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xoibsurferx

New Member
Hi everyone. I have been lurking this forum for awhile now reading the many posts about ATP flight school. I am highly considering going to ATP in Charlotte, NC and have already been approved for three loans to cover everything for my flight training at ATP ( with my father as a co-signer )

One loan is from Sallie Mae for 12,000, and the other two are from Wells Fargo at 25,000. I have asked why they couldn't get just one big loan instead of multiple ones and they said its because I do not have enough established credit and even though my co-signer has near perfect credit, its still not enough to get approved for that amount. The only thing that worries me is the interest rates are variable. I suppose thats the way it has to be with loans that big in this economy.

I'm 20 years old with a high school diploma, one year old twins and a fiance I will marry when I have enough money. I got let go from my last part time job about a month ago, and I have about 30 hours of flight time that I got from a local FBO towards my private. To get all my ratings with a minimum wage job that I had at the time and it would take nearly 10 years to complete at that rate. I want to make a career out of flying (CFI, until I make enough hours to get to a regional airline).

I have talked to a few graduates from ATP that have made it to the regionals and they said as long as I can hold onto the guaranteed instructor job at ATP until I get hired by a regional then I should be fine. If I mess up during the 6 months and they let me go at 6 months, it'll be hard to find another instructing job because most FBO's don't like accelerated training and won't even interview me because I got trained at ATP.

I know ATP pays $1500 plus bonus's which that'll be around $2000 a month after bonus's. Making even $1500 a month sounds amazing right now. In this economy I can't even find a job that I will give me enough hours to make $1500 a month. I know the bad thing will be that my loan payments will take up most of the $1500 ($800 total payments) but with my fiance's photography income of around $500 a month or so we could possibly rent a place (SMALL apartment) and FINALLY get on our own with the assistance of food stamps and all. Plus I'd have a job flying which would be amazing.

I'm asking for real world advice because this is a huge decision and a lot of money to spend if this doesn't work out. I have looked into many colleges and college would cost just as much as this program or more and I wouldn't enjoy it as much because I wouldn't be flying. I do realize that regional pay sucks the first year but after a few years its definitely more than I could make working at Mcdonalds even if I do make it as a shift leader haha.

I know its a lot of hard work and a lot of self study to get through the ATP program but it seems worth it if things really work out. I am actually interested in flying Dash 8's at a regional airline and have been told by a ATP graduate thats now at a regional that many people don't want to fly the Dash 8's and I would probably be able to get a job flying them pretty easily. Of course I'm not limiting myself to only flying Dash 8's. I just like turbo prop planes. Also ATP told me that many airlines are hiring ATP graduates that have around 600-1000 hours of flight time. Is this totally true or am I getting told false information? I have read on pilotjobs.com that some airlines minimums are at around 700hours-1000hours and some are at 1500hours.

As I said am I getting told false information by ATP about this? I do realize I'll probably be instructing at ATP for around a year or so before possibly getting hired at a regional in the current economy and hiring of regionals. But it seems a lot of regionals are hiring right now.

Please someone give me some input on my situation. Thanks!
 
The only input I'll throw in here is that ATP will tell you anything to sign the line. are the regionals taking them? maybe. Would they take someone with the same amount of hours as those guys but didn't train at ATP? Absolutely.

Where you go doesn't so much matter to the airlines, but ATP will try to tell you otherwise because they want you to go with them.

Good luck with the whole deal man, I'm broke as hell I can't even imagine doing this with a family! Much respect to you man
 
Thanks for the reply. At a business stand point I'm sure the regionals will take anyone that meets the requirements or exceeds them and definitely doesn't care where they go to flight school. I love flying and right now I could easily ride around all dressed up for months looking for a minimum wage job and pray someone will give me a big break but I've been there and done that and it didn't happen. My last job I was working at a hotel part time as a front desk associate. They don't give full time and they let me go because they said I wasn't for the job (The real reason was they hired too many people and didn't need me) but that job took me quite a bit of running around to find and I just hate to waste hundreds of dollars on gas doing it again for some part time job.

I know instructing is hard work, but at least I'll be flying. Plus I know I'll enjoy it because I love flying and I'd love to teach others to fly because I know how bad I want to learn.

Regionals will take some time to get to but its worth it in the end I suppose. It looks like at the current hiring rate and requirements it'll take me around a year or so if I instruct with ATP. I know I won't get rich instructing for ATP but i'll make more than I will working at mcdonalds. So at least my family and I will be on our own.

Any other thoughts or advice elmetal?
 
xoibsurferx said:
Regionals will take some time to get to but its worth it in the end I suppose. It looks like at the current hiring rate and requirements it'll take me around a year or so if I instruct with ATP. I know I won't get rich instructing for ATP but i'll make more than I will working at mcdonalds. So at least my family and I will be on our own.

Any other thoughts or advice elmetal?
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You have to remember that working at mcdonalds you get free food for your family and get to go home after every shift and eat food at home which is cheap. at a regional you very rarely eat at home and expenses are much higher than they would be if you were to work at mcdonalds.

With that said, you seem to know exactly what you're getting into. Just be careful about debt because it's a b. You can always lower your costs of living by living with family, eating at home, eating ramen, but the loan payments are almost impossible to get rid of.

I think you know what you're getting yourself into and you seem to know how hard it'll be financially. Don't be too proud to ask your family for assistance. With what you've described as your situation, it'll be very likely needed in the first few years
 
Thats true but I suppose food stamps can assist with that. I know one of the regional pilots I talked to on another forum told me he has food stamps because theres just no other way to afford food after paying back his debt. He went to Embry Riddle. He said his debt is much greather than I'll have at ATP.

I'm trying to do as much research as I can before I do this. Its a huge step for me especially knowing that its going to be a hard road to even get through ATP's training. I know a lot about flying but theres a million things I don't know that I'll have to learn. Even after ATP I'm sure I'll learn something new about flying on a daily basis.

My fiance and I and my children are living with my parents now. I'll be living with them during ATP as well and just commute to ATP. After ATP my parents want us out because they want their space and want to see us on our own and thats the way it should be. But I know I may need help financially. Even if they take over payments for one of the loans ($300 payment or so) that'll help a lot. Plus my son gets SSI ($400 something a month) so that'll go towards rent and such while I instruct at ATP.

So I may be able to make this work.
 
Real world advice: terrible plan.

If at all possible, DON'T GO INTO DEBT! I don't see that any of the academies or fast programs are ever going to be worth going into the $62K of debt you're proposing. As you know, as a new Commercial pilot, you'll face years of low wages that are barely liveable with your family, and that debt will only grow bigger while you're living paycheck-to-paycheck. In the long term, you'll face a decade of trying to pay off that debt, all the while you're NOT building any wealth for your family.

If you want to fly commercially, that's a good goal...but there's no real "shortcut". It's a WAY better plan especially with a family who is counting on you to work your way through ratings without going into a heap of debt.

You HAVE to think strategically about your family and your long term financial situation. Starting off this young with a heap of debt without the means of paying it off in a meaningful way for the forseeable future is not smart. If your "alternative" plan of working min wage while earning your ratings takes many years, my advice is that it's WORTH IT to wait that long if you are able to avoid the debt.

Just overall a bad idea IMHO.
 
I totally agree with you on thinking about my family and how to support them. The sad thing is I can't even get a small minimum wage job right now. I have wasted tons of money on gas running around praying to find something but I have no real work experiance, no education, and I don't see anything changing anytime soon. If anything I'd attend a college to get some sort of education so I can get some sort of job but college is going to cost more than ATP and at least I'd be able to instruct and live rough until I get to a regional and even a few years after I get to a regional.

Thats just my way of thinking about it.
 
This is a plan for disaster. I know a guy who did a different " fast track program " and got a loan for about 50K and he is going to be paying $450 a month for the next 10 years. You have somewhat of a distorted dream here. You will not be getting onto a regional airline without a degree. There are to many people walking the streets right now who are overly qualified so your competition is pretty stiff. Not saying that it's impossible but the odds are stacked against you. Sure ATP pays $1500 a month. Now you have to pay for your housing, food/gas, car insurance, cell phone bill, and whatever other expenses you have with your 2 children. How much does that leave you with left over? Most FBO's don't really care where you got your training. If you said ATP they wouldn't just show you the door. Not sure where you heard that one. As far as what airplane you eventually would get into there is no truth that a Dash 8 is easier to get a job in then an ATR or CRJ etc... ATP doesn't guarantee that you get a job after you finish the program. They guarantee you a job if you can make it through their training after. If your not what they want they will say the guarantee only applies to those who go through their standardization and pass.

You said it yourself that "I'm asking for real world advice because this is a huge decision and a lot of money to spend if this doesn't work out."

This isn't about the quality of ATP's program or a debate about training. It's about a decision that could make or break your life.

From the situation you have described I would find a job and work off your ratings piece by piece. It may take you a few years but at least you won't be in serious debt. I'm sure more people will chime in about how they took out loans and now they don't even work in the Industry.

Good luck to you in whatever you do.
 
Wow...

Going to ATP wont guarantee you a job.
What happens when ATP doesn't hire you?
What is your ATP $1500/month after taxes? Rent? Car? Food?
How much stress can your relationship endure with you being gone for the next few years?
Is your family moving with you when your home base changes? Or will you commute?

I have a feeling you don't understand all the sacrifices you and your family will have to make. Do you personally know any professional pilots?

Either way, i wish you luck!
 
Krieger said:
Wow...

Going to ATP wont guarantee you a job.
What happens when ATP doesn't hire you?
What is your ATP $1500/month after taxes? Rent? Car? Food?
How much stress can your relationship endure with you being gone for the next few years?
Is your family moving with you when your home base changes? Or will you commute?

I have a feeling you don't understand all the sacrifices you and your family will have to make. Do you personally know any professional pilots?

Either way, i wish you luck!
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I agree. I wish him all the luck but don't drink any of ATPs koolaid.

They can't guarantee you a job and might kick you out on the curb once you're done. and like I said before about ATP grads in the regionals: Had they had the hours and gone to somewhere other than ATP, they would be in the same place. ATP doesn't get your foot in the door anymore than anything else.

But more importantly, network with people, meet school owners and have another place in mind to look for a CFI job if/when ATP says goodbye.
 
Trev0079 said:
You will not be getting onto a regional airline without a degree. There are to many people walking the streets right now who are overly qualified so your competition is pretty stiff. Not saying that it's impossible but the odds are stacked against you. Most FBO's don't really care where you got your training. If you said ATP they wouldn't just show you the door.
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Hey Trev,
I have to point a few things here man...
-Plenty of people get on with a regional without a degree. The last two instructors that left ATP GKY last month for an airline job did not have a degree.
-There are actually very few qualified pilots walking the streets right now. Eagle and others have publicly said they are having issues finding qualified pilots. The pendulum is quickly swinging the other way.
-I have more old students of mine working for an FBO than for ATP. It is mainly due to the slow times behind us, because I know most of them wanted to work for ATP, but not one ever had a problem getting a job elsewhere, even during the slow times.

As far as the loan versus paying out of pocket over time debate - Most people I know with a flight school loan are not keeping it even close to maturation. If you are going to take a loan, then it is certainly in anyone's best interest to work on paying it off faster. Less interest is less extra money paid. That is hard to do at first in this industry given how little one makes the first few years. However, pilot salary increases every year significantly more than the average job, although it also starts lower. Most of the friends I know just used the increased money to pay the loan rather than buy more stuff. Certainly it is harder than just having the cash and a loan should be thoroughly thought out.

I have learned the hard way that timing is everything with this industry. It is giant rollercoaster ride and you need to get on when it is going up the hill, not after it heads down. I believe now is that time. The bashers here pick on the slogan "Seniority is everything, get there first with ATP". It is everything, really it is. That slogan means something more than ever in times like this.

Even though I had to go through a full rotation of the rollercoaster, I was one of the first hired at a regional that is quickly putting 1000 pilots behind me. Most of my fellow pilots that got hired at the same time were ATP grads and instructors. Most have loans. All are surviving just fine, even on first year pay. I am sure it is not easy, but they all seem to be happy. I have a second job. I actually don't need it, but I have an amazing amount of time off compared to what I used to do so why not?
 
elmetal said:
and like I said before about ATP grads in the regionals: Had they had the hours and gone to somewhere other than ATP, they would be in the same place. ATP doesn't get your foot in the door anymore than anything else.
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When I interviewed with my regional, really the first one to hire in any large numbers this time around, I was in the first interview week. 90% or greater were ATP grads and instructors. There were just a small handful of pilots from other schools.

ATP had reduced minimums for their grads and instructors in the last hiring wave, I am sure they will again. They already have a letter from a regional stating why they like ATP instructors and grads -

http://www.atpflightschool.com/airlines/american-eagle-hiring.html

Now am I going to say that ATP is the only way to get to a regional? Absolutely not. Plenty of ways to get there. One may be better than the other depending on individual needs.
 
It seems to me that ATP can't get their stuff straight with me. When I first contacted ATP I wanted to do the degree program until I weighted the pros and cons of it and figured it's a lot of money and what if aviation doesn't work out for me. Then I'm stuck with a useless degree and a ton of money down the drain. So I decided to stick with the 150 day fast track program so I could get my foot into the door and start a career.

I got approved for two Wells Fargo student loans ($25,000 each) and one Sallie Mae loan for $12,000. I was at the point of picking a start date and the guy asked me how I'm paying for the deposit of $995 and they can take it out of my loans once I start and the money will be refunded to my credit card. BUT then he asked about my MSU application and I told him I decided to do the fast track instead and he told me I'm only approved for $12,000 at Sallie Mae and wanted to know how I'm going to pay the rest of my training since I can't use the Wells Fargo student loans. So now what?

When I told them I wanted to do the 150 day fast track program instead of the degree program they told me I can still use the same three loans that I'm approved for. Thats not the case now apparently.

It just seems they can't get things straight with me.
 
Sounds like a golden opportunity to step back and re-think the plan.

Although the "seniority" carrot is certainly a reality of the airline world, don't let that single motivating factor force you into making financial decisions that will more than offset whatever benefit you will achieve by (potentially) getting your foot in the seniority door at a regional quickly.

Do some reading on this site -- I've been a member here for 4 years, and one thing I see over and over are stories of guys who wish they hadn't gone into a truckload of debt to get into a regional job. Look no further than the "Changing Careers" forum here if you want some examples. Read and heed.

If your primary concern is having a job that allows you to feed, clothe, and shelter your family for the foreseeable future, I can think of a lot of better ways to spend $50 grand.

I'm sympathetic to the position you're in and where you want to go, but IMHO your plan to get out of that position is not smart. If you're convinced that a career in aviation is where you want to go, there are much more fiscally responsible ways to go forward.
 
This probably won't be a popular opinion, but I think you need to hear it...

Training and working towards becoming a commercial pilot is a very selfish endeavor. You constantly have to think about what's best for you, and act on those decisions. This is absolutely NOT a career that you, a young guy with two babies and a fiance, should even remotely be considering. Think about it... You're contemplating spending over $50,000 for a career, with the end result being you qualify for food stamps. That is just such a bad idea man, and really unfair to your family. Whoever recommends you take that path is either ignorant of the aviation profession or completely reckless.

You are 20 years old and have a brand new family. Time to do what needs to be done to pay the bills, which at this point is NOT wasting $50k on your starry eyed dreams. It involves busting your ass learning a trade that puts food on the table, or going to college for something that pays the bills like engineering or nursing. When you get your financial affairs in order and your life on track, that's when you can afford to start thinking about getting into this profession. It's probably not what you wanted to hear, but I hope you think about it.
 
To the OP regarding getting large loans and not regarding selection of a flight school:

Like Hacker I've been on this forum a few years now and have seen the rollercoaster young guys trying to get into aviation have gone through. Many of the regional captains on this site were young CFIs 4-5 years ago and were poised to jump on with airlines (or other areas of professional flying) with little total time and were able to upgrade rather quickly. Many of them took out loans to do their training. Through a combination of skill, luck, and market timing, to them taking out a loan was the right thing thing to do as they wouldn't be where they are today with out it. They make relatively comfortable salaries now and can make their payments just fine. These pilots either took calculated risks or just got plain lucky depending on your view point.

Other pilots who started at the same time weren't as lucky. Maybe they picked the "wrong" company. Maybe they made a mistimed lateral transfer. Whatever the reasons, this group of pilots have endured 1, 2, or even 3 furloughs. Some have been out of work for quite some time. Some got out of flying altogether. Those loans loom heavy over their heads.

So while the large loan route may work, it also might not. Good pilots plan for contingencies and this is a contingency you should definitely plan for. What if you can't get hired at a school who will allow you teach in multis? How will you get multi time? What if the airlines aren't hiring when you're done with school? What if you get furloughed 1 year in? 5 years in? How will being out of work affect you and your family if you have to struggle with large loan payments? What if regional flying is boring to you? If you get furloughed or can't find a job after training, what are you qualified to do for work?

And finally, wanting to fly for a living is emotional. I know the feeling. But really try to view your options rationally. When you read stories on this site don't only look at the successes... buried in the not-too-distant archives are plenty of "I wish I would have" stories as well. Just keep your eyes open.
 
Thank you for the advice. A lot of your opinions are right. I do agree that maybe its not the best idea for me right now. I already have a small loan through pilot finance that I was working on my private license with. Then I decided I needed to do something different because for me to pay off a loan for each rating would take many years with the small minimum wage job I had at the time. So I took some time from flying and just weighed my options and ATP was one of them that would get my flying and I would have somewhat of a career (CFI) after ATP even if I am flying SE 172's and not building multi-time. I would love to just be a flight instructor but theres probably cheaper ways to do it than ATP.

At the airport I took flight lessons at they just got a 152 thats only $85 an hour plus $40 for instruction which would save me a ton of money to get the basic ratings through them to be able to be a CFI. I wouldn't really need a ME rating and all the multi-time to get hired at a FBO as a CFI.

But I'm also trying to do whats best for my family.
 
Oh no I mean that even if I'm flying 172's I would still be happy being a CFI. Plus nothing is like flying a reliable Cessna haha.
 
wrxpilot said:
This probably won't be a popular opinion, but I think you need to hear it...

Training and working towards becoming a commercial pilot is a very selfish endeavor. You constantly have to think about what's best for you, and act on those decisions. This is absolutely NOT a career that you, a young guy with two babies and a fiance, should even remotely be considering. Think about it... You're contemplating spending over $50,000 for a career, with the end result being you qualify for food stamps. That is just such a bad idea man, and really unfair to your family. Whoever recommends you take that path is either ignorant of the aviation profession or completely reckless.

You are 20 years old and have a brand new family. Time to do what needs to be done to pay the bills, which at this point is NOT wasting $50k on your starry eyed dreams. It involves busting your ass learning a trade that puts food on the table, or going to college for something that pays the bills like engineering or nursing. When you get your financial affairs in order and your life on track, that's when you can afford to start thinking about getting into this profession. It's probably not what you wanted to hear, but I hope you think about it.
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This is the only post you should read. As a father, your children come first.

Go to your local community college and enroll in something you have an interest in. It is not as much as ATP, the loans are fixed rate, the interest is lower, there are grants available and as a father of two you will receive ample aid.

A college degree is a much better option when it comes to keeping food on the table and a roof over your family's heads. When you are in a better position, then worry about flying. The degree will still be useful as it will set you ahead of other applicants without one.

Its not about what is enjoyable to you at this point, its about providing for your family as best you can. Taking 60k out and 6 months off work to learn to fly should not even enter your mind as an option.
 
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