Misconceptions

One that is really widespread is If the engine quits, the prop will stop

Unless you are doing slow flight at the time, it's very unlikely. And because the prop is still turning, most of the systems will still be functioning normally (alternator, vacum, oil press, ect).
Ha! I missed this one... my engine did quit in a C150 one time and the prop sure as heck stopped.

The NTSB found no oil in the engine though... so that might explain it. ;)
 
I was also always taught if you had the "purpose" of flight. I will admit I have logged to run-up and back when I found a problem.

So, a question. If it is not loggable time, do you charge your student for this time? I dont see how you could if nothing was logged.
What does having loggable flight time have to do with the time you spend with your student and how you charge for it?
 
For instructors that get paid by flight hour. If there was no flight time them there must not be any pay.
If they get paid by flight hour and they (or their employers) don't see the value of ground instruction and briefings, or the value of a fledgling pilot learning how to make a no-go decision because of a mechanical issue, then I see the problem. A few of them in fact.
 
If they get paid by flight hour and they (or their employers) don't see the value of ground instruction and briefings, or the value of a fledgling pilot learning how to make a no-go decision because of a mechanical issue, then I see the problem. A few of them in fact.


I'm not debating the fact of weather or not there is "value", or if there is a problem with the system. You asked what does loggable time have anything to do with pay, and I answered based on how a few instructors I know get paid. I know a few of my friends that get paid by "BILLABLE" flight hours, so if it is not logged, it is not billable flight time, so they dont get paid. One of them does not do ground at all, they have separate instructors for that, so all he does is fly. No flight time=no pay.
 
If I fly an amphib from one airport to another airport without touching down in water is it SES time that I log or SEL? Does one need a SES to fly this trip in this aircraft? I believe it is SES time and yes, you do need a SES add on.

I've taxied through puddles and logged SES time...I also like to log tailwheel time during take off roll and landing flare when the nose wheel hasn't yet touched down:sarcasm:
 
If they get paid by flight hour and they (or their employers) don't see the value of ground instruction and briefings, or the value of a fledgling pilot learning how to make a no-go decision because of a mechanical issue, then I see the problem. A few of them in fact.


From a student's perspective, it is wrong to get charged and from an instructor's perspective, it is wrong not to get paid. Yep, I believe the school should eat the .3 of the time for the taxiing to the runway and back. If you are an independent instructor with your own plane and it suddenly has a problem then you eat the .3 cost of time. During my Commercial check ride the key switch went out as we were about to go fly. I had to reschedule my ride the next day and also fly to another location to meet that examiner. Then the weather came in for two days so I had to sit at that location for 2 nights. The school tried to charge me for that .7 hour flight there and another .7 coming back. Had I known in advance that I would have to go on a cross country to meet examiner it would have been different. Hotels get expensive. LOL... on the way back after check ride the alternator went out and had to get light gun signals form the tower. I felt like I just went through a check ride/endurance test.
 
From a student's perspective, it is wrong to get charged...
I don't understand. Why is it "wrong" from a student's perspective to be charged for the time he has the instructor? I have never had a student complain about being charged for a lesson, and I have never complained about paying my instructors for their time whether in the air or on the ground.

It's not fair for a CFI to charge for his time with a student - now =there's= a misconception worth looking at.
 
I don't understand. Why is it "wrong" from a student's perspective to be charged for the time he has the instructor? I have never had a student complain about being charged for a lesson, and I have never complained about paying my instructors for their time whether in the air or on the ground.

It's not fair for a CFI to charge for his time with a student - now =there's= a misconception worth looking at.

I noticed you deleted the second half of my sentence and all that was said afterward. :whatever: Mechanical parts break! Should that suddenly be financially added to the student fee or deducted from the instructor pay that it happens to break on? Ok, say the student does pay for you the instructor being with him/her ....should he also be charged 0.3 of aircraft rental that it took him to taxi to the end of the runway, do run up, and then taxi back to the ramp? I don't!
 
You are correct that flight time starts when you move with intent to fly, but that is only half the reg. Here is what FAR 1.1 says:

"Flight Time - Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing"

Notice flight time does not come to an end until you have landed, therefore it is assumed that you took off.

Having the "moves with purpose for flight" line in the reg only allows to you count taxi time before your takeoff and after landing. Not taxi and run-up time before returning to the ramp. This is not legal to log because you never landed and if you never landed, when does the flight time end?


I have to say that I whole heartedly disagree. When one taxis to the runway, he has the intent of flight. When no takeoff is made, then there will be no landing, obviously.

My time starts the moment I start the engine (And start moving) until the engine is off and the aircraft is parked.
I count all of this as PIC time because of the original reason stated above; the fact that if something happens, I am responsable for it.

For example, I had a student not to long ago that was training for his multi engine add-on to his commercial certificate. When he flew the maneuvers, he was well within the PTS on the first try. As his flying was beautiful, his taxiing made me want to cry for a different reason. All over the place, off the taxiways, the only time we held centerline was for a split second when he was crossing it, shooting off in another direction. I ended up training him for 2.0 of time in the air and 1.1 hours on the ground.

As a requirement for his rating was taxiing, I had to train him on the ground in how to taxi the aircraft properly. Does this count as instruction? Yes it does as he needed that training to fulfil the PTS requirements for the checkride. Do I count this as flight time? Absolutely! We never got to a parking spot until we were complete with the taxi instruction that I gave him so even when we 'stopped' the aircraft was not "At rest." If I would have taxied with him before the flight I would have still logged the time as flight time on the basis that we intended to fly.

As far as the logging of the taxi and runup if there was a problem found with the aircraft. The aircraft began moving under it's own power with the intent of flight. True, so the flight time clock began. All the time taxiing and during the runup IS flight time according to the F.A.A. Once the decision was made that the takeoff could not be completed, the flight time stopped. The aircraft taxiing back to base is not flight time. However it is "Total Time."

As for the idiots taxiing around just to build time, you must have flight time in order to qualify for a certificate or rating. Since they had no intention of taking off, they had no flight time and that's why they got in trouble. Not to mention that you need no 'safety pilot' when you're on the ground. Just moronic.
 
I noticed you deleted the second half of my sentence and all that was said afterward. :whatever: Mechanical parts break! Should that suddenly be financially added to the student fee or deducted from the instructor pay that it happens to break on? Ok, say the student does pay for you the instructor being with him/her ....should he also be charged 0.3 of aircraft rental that it took him to taxi to the end of the runway, do run up, and then taxi back to the ramp? I don't!
I don't either. But the CFI didn't break; the airplane did.

Also, it were =my= airplane my answer would be different. I assume yours would also be if it were the student's airplane.
 
Also, it were =my= airplane my answer would be different. I assume yours would also be if it were the student's airplane.

Wrong! As an independent instructor and my aircraft broke I'd be somewhat embarrassed and could not come so low as to charge the student for 0.3 of aircraft time much less the instructor fee.

If student owned aircraft, I would expect to get paid as an instructor.

Flight school owned aircraft, both student and instructor waste time if this happens so school should foot the bill.


You have your business view and I have mine.
 
Wrong! As an independent instructor and my aircraft broke I'd be somewhat embarrassed and could not come so low as to charge the student for 0.3 of aircraft time much less the instructor fee.

If student owned aircraft, I would expect to get paid as an instructor.

Airplanes break, it doesn't matter who owns them. If your there at work, in the seat you should get paid, it doesn't matter who owns the plane.
 
I have to say that I whole heartedly disagree. When one taxis to the runway, he has the intent of flight. When no takeoff is made, then there will be no landing, obviously.

My time starts the moment I start the engine (And start moving) until the engine is off and the aircraft is parked.
I count all of this as PIC time because of the original reason stated above; the fact that if something happens, I am responsable for it.

For example, I had a student not to long ago that was training for his multi engine add-on to his commercial certificate. When he flew the maneuvers, he was well within the PTS on the first try. As his flying was beautiful, his taxiing made me want to cry for a different reason. All over the place, off the taxiways, the only time we held centerline was for a split second when he was crossing it, shooting off in another direction. I ended up training him for 2.0 of time in the air and 1.1 hours on the ground.

As a requirement for his rating was taxiing, I had to train him on the ground in how to taxi the aircraft properly. Does this count as instruction? Yes it does as he needed that training to fulfil the PTS requirements for the checkride. Do I count this as flight time? Absolutely! We never got to a parking spot until we were complete with the taxi instruction that I gave him so even when we 'stopped' the aircraft was not "At rest." If I would have taxied with him before the flight I would have still logged the time as flight time on the basis that we intended to fly.

As far as the logging of the taxi and runup if there was a problem found with the aircraft. The aircraft began moving under it's own power with the intent of flight. True, so the flight time clock began. All the time taxiing and during the runup IS flight time according to the F.A.A. Once the decision was made that the takeoff could not be completed, the flight time stopped. The aircraft taxiing back to base is not flight time. However it is "Total Time."

As for the idiots taxiing around just to build time, you must have flight time in order to qualify for a certificate or rating. Since they had no intention of taking off, they had no flight time and that's why they got in trouble. Not to mention that you need no 'safety pilot' when you're on the ground. Just moronic.


How do you know when to end flight time then? I sure don't know, the airplane never landed, so therefore never came to rest, AFTER LANDING. You can whole heartedly agree with the regs all you want, but in the eyes of the FAA, your opinion doesn't matter. In the definition of flight time, I don't see anything about who is PIC, or who is responsible if anything happens. You're absolutely correct that the clock starts when the airplane start moving under its own power for the purpose of flight, but when flight cannot be accomplished, the nullifies flight time. Remember, a statement is true, only if the entire statement is true, if part of it is false, the entire statement is false. You can't pick and choose which parts of the regs you want to follow, which is exactly what you are implying, that since you would be taxiing for flight, that makes it flight time, even though you can't complete the second part of the definition. As far as your scenario about the multi student, as long as you landed, and then did all the taxi work, it absolutely would be flight time, because the airplane had not come to rest after landing yet...but if you had a separate lesson in which all you did is taxi work, and no flying, it is not flight time.

Just think about it, I'm not pushing my opinion on you, I'm pushing the FAA's opinion on you, and that is the only opinion that matters. There are many things in the regs I don't agree with, but I can't argue my point, because my point doesn't mean anything.

Onto how to charge...I agree that instructor time and airplane time do not have to be the same. If the airplane breaks, you should not have to pay for the plane (unless, of course, you own the airplane), but why should you not pay for instruction? Just because the plane broke does not mean that you did not receive any instruction, does it? I did have an experience once where we had two aborted takeoffs and did not fly. We did the run-up, and looking back on it, I should have caught the problem, carb heat on, got a drop in RPM, but when I turned it off, the RPM's didn't come back. I also trained out of a short field (2300' runway), so we are on the takeoff role, halfway fown the runway, and weren't getting good RPM's and only at about 40-45 kts, so we aborted, we tried again, same results, so we parked, let the mechanics know, and it turns out that the cable for the carb heat broke during the run-up, and it was stuck in the on position. Did I pay for my instructor, yes, because he provided instruction, especially on the aborted takeoffs, and plus, we did ground training after that. My instructor had a simple rule, you pay for the time that you book him, whether you fly or do ground (obviously weather doesn't count, or if you called him because you were sick or whatever). If you are a no show, you still pay him the next time you see him. If he is a no show, the next lesson is free. Funny how I never had to pay extra, and he never had to give a free lesson, so it really worked well. Yes I know, he was an independent contractor at the airport, the flight school did not actually employ the instructors, so at those schools it is different, but for the independent guys, it works well
 
Wrong! As an independent instructor and my aircraft broke I'd be somewhat embarrassed and could not come so low as to charge the student for 0.3 of aircraft time much less the instructor fee.
which sounds an awful like exactly what I said.
 
I have to say that I whole heartedly disagree. When one taxis to the runway, he has the intent of flight. When no takeoff is made, then there will be no landing, obviously.

My time starts the moment I start the engine (And start moving) until the engine is off and the aircraft is parked.
I count all of this as PIC time because of the original reason stated above; the fact that if something happens, I am responsable for it.

For example, I had a student not to long ago that was training for his multi engine add-on to his commercial certificate. When he flew the maneuvers, he was well within the PTS on the first try. As his flying was beautiful, his taxiing made me want to cry for a different reason. All over the place, off the taxiways, the only time we held centerline was for a split second when he was crossing it, shooting off in another direction. I ended up training him for 2.0 of time in the air and 1.1 hours on the ground.

As a requirement for his rating was taxiing, I had to train him on the ground in how to taxi the aircraft properly. Does this count as instruction? Yes it does as he needed that training to fulfil the PTS requirements for the checkride. Do I count this as flight time? Absolutely! We never got to a parking spot until we were complete with the taxi instruction that I gave him so even when we 'stopped' the aircraft was not "At rest." If I would have taxied with him before the flight I would have still logged the time as flight time on the basis that we intended to fly.

As far as the logging of the taxi and runup if there was a problem found with the aircraft. The aircraft began moving under it's own power with the intent of flight. True, so the flight time clock began. All the time taxiing and during the runup IS flight time according to the F.A.A. Once the decision was made that the takeoff could not be completed, the flight time stopped. The aircraft taxiing back to base is not flight time. However it is "Total Time."

As for the idiots taxiing around just to build time, you must have flight time in order to qualify for a certificate or rating. Since they had no intention of taking off, they had no flight time and that's why they got in trouble. Not to mention that you need no 'safety pilot' when you're on the ground. Just moronic.

Ok, so by that reasoning if all you did was taxi around for two hours you would log it as two hours total time with zero flight time. Do I understand your logic? How does that comply with 1.1?
 
As far as the logging of the taxi and runup if there was a problem found with the aircraft. The aircraft began moving under it's own power with the intent of flight. True, so the flight time clock began. All the time taxiing and during the runup IS flight time according to the F.A.A. Once the decision was made that the takeoff could not be completed, the flight time stopped. The aircraft taxiing back to base is not flight time. However it is "Total Time."


Please read the whole post. The "Flight Time" stopped when the decision not to go was made. So the taxi out, with the intent of light started the flight time and when the decison not to go was made, the flight time stopped. The taxi back does not count as flight time.
 
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