Misconceptions

[Ian_J]

Sure thing, here is why... Can you get into an accident or incident during taxing? If so, then who is responsible? Is the pilot in command not?

Yes.

I have never taken advantage of this and I believe it would be pointless to do so (may as well just jot down numbers in your log). If the aircraft is still moving forward is the aircraft at "rest"?

I'm not following you here.

I'm curious why you personally believe the aircraft is at rest as soon as the wheels touch the runway. If your talking airline pay then that is another story.

I don't. The airplane is at rest after it lands, taxis, and stops.

If I fly an amphib from one airport to another airport without touching down in water is it SES time that I log or SEL? Does one need a SES to fly this trip in this aircraft? I believe it is SES time and yes, you do need a SES add on.

I'm curious how this even relates to the discussion. But yes, if the category is airplane, and the class is single engine sea, you should log it as such.

I believe Ian J is talking about your original scenario, where you taxi out, discover you have a bad mag and taxi back. This cannot be counted as flight time because the aircraft never came to rest after a landing, landing being the key word.

Yes - that's my point. I'm not disagreeing that taxi time counts as flight time as long as a takeoff and landing are made.

 

[bdhill1979]

I'm sorry if I'm misreading you on this one but why do you think GPS has a slant range error?

I meant that they do not have slant range error

 

[splash]

Yes.

I have never taken advantage of this and I believe it would be pointless to do so (may as well just jot down numbers in your log). If the aircraft is still moving forward is the aircraft at "rest"?

I'm not following you here.

I don't log flight time by taxing aircraft to wash racks as stated above.



I don't. The airplane is at rest after it lands, taxis, and stops.



I'm curious how this even relates to the discussion. But yes, if the category is airplane, and the class is single engine sea, you should log it as such.

It is not directed at you only. It's just another paragraph. ...What's all the bad taste about being curious how it relates to the discussion? Read the thread title. Im not here for a worthless nit picking fight about logging five minutes of time that it takes to taxi to the runway.



Yes - that's my point. I'm not disagreeing that taxi time counts as flight time as long as a takeoff and landing are made.

My quotes are in bold under your quotes above .

Is the pilot in command still responsible if something happens during taxi to the runway before take off? Yes, it is also experience. Log what you want. This is getting to religious...:crazy: I stop!

 

[TrustMeI'maPilot]

I thought there was something that said "intending" flight.
You cannot log the time while taxiing the aircraft to the wash spot unless you plan to take off and fly there. The FAA has revoked a few or more certificates after they found two idiots taxiing a twin around the airport (2 Pilots) and one was taxiing and the other one acted as the safety pilot...

On the other hand during a checkride I once had, we taxied out to find something wrong during runup, and logged the time, as the initial intention was to go flying. The examiner demanded to put this into my logbook, as a large part of discussion preceded the runup. It was part of my flight test, and there it went.

You are correct that flight time starts when you move with intent to fly, but that is only half the reg. Here is what FAR 1.1 says:

"Flight Time - Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing"

Notice flight time does not come to an end until you have landed, therefore it is assumed that you took off.

Having the "moves with purpose for flight" line in the reg only allows to you count taxi time before your takeoff and after landing. Not taxi and run-up time before returning to the ramp. This is not legal to log because you never landed and if you never landed, when does the flight time end?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Is the pilot in command still responsible if something happens during taxi to the runway before take off?

So what? Being responsible is not a sufficient basis for logging anything. Period.

You fit a box in 61.51 you log; you don't fit a box in 61.51, you don't. Responsibility for the flight is irrelevant (except for those few 61.51 boxes where it is mentioned).

(I'm not expressing an opinion on the "taxi and return" issue; only saying that pointing to responsibility doesn't answer it)

 

[splash]

You are right! I'm crazy wrong! That's my final thoughts on this particular subject.

 

[Fly_Unity]

Spin training requires a parachute Since normal spins are required for a certificate (namely the CFI) you may do spin training with any student seeking any certificate or rating. This is per a letter from the chief counsol's office whichi I'm too lazy to lool up now, but it's in the book "FARs Explained".

Ok, what about doing spins for a private pilot student? or to keep proficiant in spins? or to do spins with another instructor who wants to be more comfortable teaching to others? Is a parachute required for this?

 

[Ian_J]

You are right! I'm crazy wrong! That's my final thoughts on this particular subject.

It is not directed at you only. It's just another paragraph. ...What's all the bad taste about being curious how it relates to the discussion? Read the thread title. Im not here for a worthless nit picking fight about logging five minutes of time that it takes to taxi to the runway.

Splash, there's no "bad taste" here. This is without a doubt an "academic" discussion, and I think everyone (me included) has been nice and professional. The taxi and return subject isn't a big deal in the larger scheme of things, I simply enjoy discussing regulation-based issues. This isn't a "nitpicky fight." It's simply a discussion.

 

[splash]

Splash, there's no "bad taste" here. This is without a doubt an "academic" discussion, and I think everyone (me included) has been nice and professional. The taxi and return subject isn't a big deal in the larger scheme of things, I simply enjoy discussing regulation-based issues. This isn't a "nitpicky fight." It's simply a discussion.

1,2,3,4 who's a pilot what's the score? lol... I just subtracted .1 from every log entry I have because I now consider taxing to the runway not really flight time by definition. Do you subtract .1 from the hobbs meter after every one of your flights? Sounds like a nitpicky interpretation of the aviation bible. Hey, to each his/her own. Wow, I'm 15 hours less of a pilot now.

 

[USMCmech]

1,2,3,4 who's a pilot what's the score? lol... I just subtracted .1 from every log entry I have because I now consider taxing to the runway not really flight time by definition. Do you subtract .1 from the hobbs meter after every one of your flights? Sounds like a nitpicky interpretation of the aviation bible. Hey, to each his/her own. Wow, I'm 15 hours less of a pilot now.

Well, don't. Because that is not what the regulations allow. From the time the wheels move to the time they stop is loggable total time.

If your taxi takes 1.5 hours before you take off (I've had it happen) all that time is loggable as total time, even if you were sitting with the parking brake on reading a magazine.

 

[splash]

Well, don't. Because that is not what the regulations allow. From the time the wheels move to the time they stop is loggable total time.

If your taxi takes 1.5 hours before you take off (I've had it happen) all that time is loggable as total time, even if you were sitting with the parking brake on reading a magazine.

I believe you.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Ok, what about doing spins for a private pilot student? or to keep proficiant in spins? or to do spins with another instructor who wants to be more comfortable teaching to others? Is a parachute required for this?

No.

The rule is that you don't need a parachute for

"Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by ... [a CFI]"

not

"Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by ... [a CFI]" but only when you are actively working on the specific certificate or rating that requires it.

 

[USMCmech]

One that is really widespread is If the engine quits, the prop will stop

Unless you are doing slow flight at the time, it's very unlikely. And because the prop is still turning, most of the systems will still be functioning normally (alternator, vacum, oil press, ect).

 

[bdhill1979]

One that is really widespread is If the engine quits, the prop will stop

and that is the true definition of a stall

 

[Ian_J]

1,2,3,4 who's a pilot what's the score? lol... I just subtracted .1 from every log entry I have because I now consider taxing to the runway not really flight time by definition. Do you subtract .1 from the hobbs meter after every one of your flights? Sounds like a nitpicky interpretation of the aviation bible. Hey, to each his/her own. Wow, I'm 15 hours less of a pilot now.

Splash... please read below.

I'm not disagreeing that taxi time counts as flight time as long as a takeoff and landing are made.

I've already said that per FAR 1.1 taxi time counts.

And I personally don't log by the hobbs. I start logging when the aircraft moves under its own power when I intend to fly, and I stop logging after the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

 

[wjmiller3]

Splash... please read below.



I've already said that per FAR 1.1 taxi time counts.

And I personally don't log by the hobbs. I start logging when the aircraft moves under its own power when I intend to fly, and I stop logging after the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

I was also always taught if you had the "purpose" of flight. I will admit I have logged to run-up and back when I found a problem.

So, a question. If it is not loggable time, do you charge your student for this time? I dont see how you could if nothing was logged.

 

[Douglas]

So, a question. If it is not loggable time, do you charge your student for this time? I dont see how you could if nothing was logged.

The way i do it:
if after a run-up the airplane is not mechanically sound and we have to terminate before take-off then the company eats it. This changes with company policy.
If the student is a rare one and we spend 30 minutes taxing around because they can't quite get it, then they do get charged.

 

[Ian_J]

I was also always taught if you had the "purpose" of flight. I will admit I have logged to run-up and back when I found a problem.

There really is no "defining" FAA LOI out there on this subject. The best there is involves cases dealing specifically with 135/121 duty and rest times. So we really only have FAR 1.1 as guidance. You have to decide what:

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;



means for yourself regardless of what you were taught.

So, a question. If it is not loggable time, do you charge your student for this time? I dont see how you could if nothing was logged.

I would charge for any time I was providing instruction (ground or flight) to a student. My ground and flight rate were always the same so in this case it wouldn't matter. If my ground rate were different from my flight rate, I'd bill the ground rate.

And that would be my "official answer." My real answer is it would be situation dependent. If it were a Student Pilot who could still get some good education about taxiing, ATC commo, taxiway/ runway incursions, etc... yeah, I'd charge.

A commercial student, BFR, IPC, etc... nah... I'd eat that time.

 

[splash]

Splash... please read below.
I've already said that per FAR 1.1 taxi time counts.
And I personally don't log by the hobbs. I start logging when the aircraft moves under its own power when I intend to fly, and I stop logging after the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

Ian... no problem.

One that is really widespread is If the engine quits, the prop will stop.


Unless you are doing slow flight at the time, it's very unlikely. And because the prop is still turning, most of the systems will still be functioning normally (alternator, vacum, oil press, ect).

Yeah, I know this from first hand experience.

 

[splash]

and that is the true definition of a stall

That is soooo the media. That is what they said on my footage.