Might as well move to the Lav Now (Pop the Popcorn Out)

[Maurus]

I'm sorry, but there's just something not right about paying a freight company to "time build." This isn't a flight school, it's a 135 freight hauler. Charging pilots to fly right seat and log questionable PIC time is just not on the up and up.

Questionable PIC time is something I understand as I have questioned it and have actually asked one of our FSDO guys about it. He said it isn't against the regs, but most companies will not like this form of time when they go to hire said pilot.

They aren't forcing people to pay for the right seat time. It is just more of something they have if people want to do it. The flying they do is good experience, but like I said, it isn't my type of time building.

I don't see how it is "part of the problem" for professional pilots. I would understand if it took paying jobs away, but it does not.

 

[surreal1221]

PFT/J? they don't get a job when they hit 135 mins. How exactly are they paying for a job?

Did you pay to get your private? How about instrument? Commercial? CFI? CFII? MEI? How did you get the PIC required for your MEI? I bet somewhere in there you payed to build time to get to a point where you could get a job.

This SIC gig is just a time building system, nothing more, nothing less. People have bought C-150's to time build yet no one scolds, but once someone finds another way to time build for less money, it goes to hell.

If paying jobs were getting screwed, you would have a valid point, but Castle will operate the same whether they have 0 SIC's or 20 SIC's.

Now if you calmly explain why you feel it is PFT/J, go for it, but overreacting like in the above post does not solve anything.

Whatever - you have it all figured out don't you?

People PAY for their Private, Instrument, Commercial, ATP, MEI, CFI, CFII because those specific ratings and certificates are federally regulated items that must be gained by participating in specific training programs.

Further, people pay for type ratings because those are specifically regulated items by the federal government to show proficiency and knowledge in the specific airframes and flying environments.

People SHOULD NOT pay for the opportunity to sit right seat in any capacity.

The ethics involve should certainly stop any individual from even CONTEMPLATING such a ridiculous adventure.

But clearly, we have enough geniuses who are willing to do whatever they can to get that extra hour of flight time. When will it end?

When they finally upgrade to 777 Captain and they can't ##### themselves out any longer?

Oh and I see where you challenged me on my "building" time experience. Guess what - I had none. I earned my Commercial Multi and single at 192.5 hours, and shortly there after I was an MEI (less than 205hrs TT). Shortly there after I was employed as an MEI, CFI, CFII earning a living.

So, I'm sorry. . .I didn't shell out a couple grand simply to "build" time. I completed a Part 141 regulated training program, that at it's completion provided me with a CMEL and CSEL, completed my MEI, CFI, and CFII under Part 61, and was employed shortly there after.

You know. . .making money for flying. . .like it's suppose to be done when you hold a Commercially rated certificate.

 

[SteveC]

PFT/J? they don't get a job when they hit 135 mins. How exactly are they paying for a job?

Did you pay to get your private? How about instrument? Commercial? CFI? CFII? MEI? How did you get the PIC required for your MEI? I bet somewhere in there you payed to build time to get to a point where you could get a job.

This SIC gig is just a time building system, nothing more, nothing less. People have bought C-150's to time build yet no one scolds, but once someone finds another way to time build for less money, it goes to hell.

If paying jobs were getting screwed, you would have a valid point, but Castle will operate the same whether they have 0 SIC's or 20 SIC's.

Now if you calmly explain why you feel it is PFT/J, go for it, but overreacting like in the above post does not solve anything.

Actually I tend to agree with you on this one Maurus. I can't say I'm a fan of the program by any means, but I really don't see a big problem with it either.

<shrug>

 

[surreal1221]

Oh, and just for the record. I'm not trying to convince anyone my vision is correct.

 

[Maurus]

Whatever - you have it all figured out don't you?

Actually I indirectly asked you to explain with the last sentence of the quote you took from me. I also asked that you calm down, but that didn't happen either.

You know. . .making money for flying. . .like it's suppose to be done when you hold a Commercially rated certificate.

What if there are no jobs to be had? I know for a fact that there are not many low time jobs in NE Ohio. Sure the pilot could move, but we still see people on our very own board with much more time than a new CFI or Commercial Pilot still looking for even just a CFI gig. At least this is something to possibly pad a resume and get a foot in a door while times are bad.

 

[surreal1221]

If you didn't like my post, report it.

So I'm not calm? My internet attitude doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy? Report it.

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Honestly, I was hoping some sense of ethical behavior by a professional would be attained but clearly not.

Since the job market is total crap it's NOW okay to go and pay for training and pay for a job. Right?



I will say that this certain circumstance is not PFT/PFJ, but, if I may use an analogy:

Weed is largely considered to be a gateway drug. To heroin, meth, crack, etc.

This little circumstance is the weed, and PFJ/PFT is the heroin and meth that is ultimately killing our professional aviation community.

Feel better?

Oh man, the high off of riding right seat in a part 135 leg and flying the part 91 leg was so damn AWESOME! I paid $3,500 for "unlimited" time. . .I wonder what $10,000 will get me. . .maybe I can score a hit off of that nice Key West PFJ deal and rack up some QUALITY right seat time in a TURBINE and build some TPIC time on their Part 91 legs and then I can go and be a 777 Captain at Delta in NO TIME!!!!

Oh god. . .the high is far too good! How much more money can I waste to BUILD TIME! Maybe I'll never have to actually get a real JOB! Or go through a legit training program. . .oh man, that'd be great. Gimme a hit of that right seat PFJ for $12,500 Mister. . .Thank You Sir!

 

[SteveC]

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Honestly, I was hoping some sense of ethical behavior by a professional would be attained but clearly not.

Your version of ethical behavior may not be universal you know.

Since the job market is total crap it's NOW okay to go and pay for training and pay for a job. Right?



I will say that this certain circumstance is not PFJ/PFJ, but, if I may use an example.

Weed is largely considered to be a gateway drug. To heroin, meth, crack, etc.

This little circumstance is the weed, and PFJ/PFT is the heroin and meth that is ultimately killing our professional aviation community.

Feel better?

Nice try. No sale.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So I'm not calm? My internet attitude doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy?

Damn SNAPs.

 

[surreal1221]

Your version of ethical behavior may not be universal you know.



Nice try. No sale.

No sale?

I didn't know anything was for sale Steve. You a moderator or a client this wonderful evening?

What you shopping for? You want an 8-ball?

Or do you disagree that this little circumstance wouldn't leave some clueless chump to decide hey, maybe I should just go balls to the wall and stop messing around with this little herb and reach for the heroin that is PFJ/PFT?

 

[SteveC]

No sale?

I didn't know anything was for sale Steve. You a moderator or a client this wonderful evening?

I try to make it pretty clear when I'm acting as a moderator. Right now...just giving my opinion.

What you shopping for? You want an 8-ball?

Cute.

Or do you disagree that this little circumstance wouldn't leave some clueless chump to decide hey, maybe I should just go balls to the wall and stop messing around with this little herb and reach for the heroin that is PFJ/PFT?

Yeah, I disagree. I think it's a stupid analogy with no basis in reality.

 

[surreal1221]

Fair enough. Is your reality accepting resumes?

While I don't have a peer review study, or statistical data to show you, I do know that these little outfits do inspire individuals (or an individual) to go on and invest MORE money into a PFJ/PFT establishment. I've been lobbying him to join this very forum for a very long time. While it was not a Part 135 outfit that got him hooked, rather a rich airplane owner - that he PAID to sit right seat - after he had his first little taste he felt he needed to spend more money over at Key West in their little scheme. The high has certainly worn off.

At least that is the reality that I've witnessed.

 

[SteveC]

Fair enough. Is your reality accepting resumes?

Sure!

Prereqs include experience, maturity, and a sense of humor. Interested?

 

[Seggy]

Do y'all wear boxer or briefs?

 

[surreal1221]

Do y'all wear boxer or briefs?

From what I hear, they've spent all their money on these little establishments and schemes that they can't afford clean underwear.

Such a shame.

Prereqs include experience, maturity, and a sense of humor. Interested?

How much do I have to pay you to submit my resume?

 

[Ian_J]

Sure!

Prereqs include experience, maturity, and a sense of humor. Interested?

Awww, lay off Steve... sounds like the little guy has had a tough day.

 

[surreal1221]

Now that's a laugh.

 

[jtrain609]

Sure!

Prereqs include experience, maturity, and a sense of humor. Interested?

I can quote Red Green at will, what's that get me?

 

[Ian_J]

Now that's a laugh.

Laughable because it's unlikely you had a tough day? Considering what you do for a living you're probably right.

(couldn't resist!)

 

[Maurus]

If you didn't like my post, report it.

So I'm not calm? My internet attitude doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy? Report it.

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Honestly, I was hoping some sense of ethical behavior by a professional would be attained but clearly not.

Actually I could care less what you say about or to me. I am just wanting you to calm down so that you might explain some stuff a bit clearer instead. I know it is tiresome to keep answering stuff that you view as being the same thing over and over again, but once the hostility begins, the discussion is over and bickering ensues till the biggest e-peen finally gets the thread locked.

If you want to continue to be sarcastic and hostile, be my guest, but doen't expect it to help your cause.

Since the job market is total crap it's NOW okay to go and pay for training and pay for a job. Right?



I will say that this certain circumstance is not PFT/PFJ, but, if I may use an analogy:

Weed is largely considered to be a gateway drug. To heroin, meth, crack, etc.

This little circumstance is the weed, and PFJ/PFT is the heroin and meth that is ultimately killing our professional aviation community.

Frankly I don't see this operation going that far. Just listen to everyone questioning the PIC time. Even a FSDO rep questioned it in terms of getting a job. Although what you said could happen, it is purly curcumstancial and could just an easily not happen.

 

[SteveC]

While I don't have a peer review study, or statistical data to show you, I do know that these little outfits do inspire individuals (or an individual) to go on and invest MORE money into a PFJ/PFT establishment. I've been lobbying him to join this very forum for a very long time. While it was not a Part 135 outfit that got him hooked, rather a rich airplane owner - that he PAID to sit right seat - after he had his first little taste he felt he needed to spend more money over at Key West in their little scheme. The high has certainly worn off.

At least that is the reality that I've witnessed.

Hey! You added to your post when I wasn't looking!


I can think of at least three lines of reasoning to propose that your single example isn't worth much consideration (at least not enough to draw the conslusion that you have), but as I said early on I'm not a big fan of this program. I have continued this disagreement this far mostly because I'm not in agreement with some of the disdain heaped on it, not because I'm a fan of the program.

With that happy note I'm off to the sack. Got an early morning flight so I need my beauty rest. Ciao!