Might as well move to the Lav Now (Pop the Popcorn Out)

When I was building time in the Commander after I "retired" from teaching, I was able to log all but 2.5 hours of my time as PIC since I was the sole manipulator of the controls. Even though the airplane is certified single pilot, and our operations are single pilot, we do have a letter of authorization from the FAA to allow SICs to fly with us.

We do charge $2500 for a checkout then $35 an hour for time (BTW, I didn't pay this since I signed a training agreement,) but for the experience of flying freight is all sorts of conditions, it's worth it rather than saying, ehh, weather isn't good enough to go and teach today.

That was basically my excuse to get out of teaching, winter was coming and the days were shorter and most of my students were only able to show up after it was dark and they were not ready for it.

Anyways, that's my $.02. If I were you, I would get something in writing (legal document) at least guaranteeing a certian minimum of hours for the money you are spending.
 
SteveC said:
Is it:

"...this guy simply isn't logging his time correctly if he logged any of his time with Amflight as PIC time."

or;

"...this guy simply isn't logging his time correctly if he logged all of his time with Amflight as PIC time.

:confused:
Click to expand...

Check your PM's.
 
SteveC said:
"...this guy simply isn't logging his time correctly if he logged all of his time with Amflight as PIC time.

:confused:
Click to expand...
I think this is the case

The guy came asking around for a CFI job and it turns out he did not have his CFI, but wanted to find someone to "sign him off" (meaning he thought pretty highly of himself), and give him a job. When we told him no on the job he went on about a thirty minute tirade about how he has "paid his dues" and rattled off all of his "experience".

THis was over a year ago and last I heard he was still sporadically showing up to CFI ground class for a few days, then disappearing for a few weeks.
 
I love the old manipulator argument; it'll get you laughed out of an interview at every company I've worked for. It might not be true for corporate gigs, but in the 121/135 world it's not going to fly.
 
If it's in the regs as PIC, who's gonna know, unless you volunteer the information. And alot of our SICs go on to fly regonals and majors, though they flew for us about 2 to 10 years ago when the airlines were hiring, but still, legal way to build time. We consider our SICs in training for PIC. So alot of the time, we'll allow the SIC to make decisions regarding the flight, of course it goes through the PIC first. So how do FOs working out there log PF time? I'm sure they'd take the oppurtunity to log it PIC.

Now if you want to talk about grey areas: logging PIC time as a safety pilot.
 
kiloalpha said:
If it's in the regs as PIC, who's gonna know, unless you volunteer the information. And alot of our SICs go on to fly regonals and majors, though they flew for us about 2 to 10 years ago when the airlines were hiring, but still, legal way to build time. We consider our SICs in training for PIC. So alot of the time, we'll allow the SIC to make decisions regarding the flight, of course it goes through the PIC first. So how do FOs working out there log PF time? I'm sure they'd take the oppurtunity to log it PIC.

Now if you want to talk about grey areas: logging PIC time as a safety pilot.
Click to expand...

Safety pilot is in no way a "grey" area. It is supported by the regs and FAA opinion letters.
 
kiloalpha said:
If it's in the regs as PIC, who's gonna know, unless you volunteer the information. And alot of our SICs go on to fly regonals and majors, though they flew for us about 2 to 10 years ago when the airlines were hiring, but still, legal way to build time. We consider our SICs in training for PIC. So alot of the time, we'll allow the SIC to make decisions regarding the flight, of course it goes through the PIC first. So how do FOs working out there log PF time? I'm sure they'd take the oppurtunity to log it PIC.

Now if you want to talk about grey areas: logging PIC time as a safety pilot.
Click to expand...

You're ahh...well how do I say this...wrong.

I've got some things to do today, but I think we'll need another lengthy post on how and when you can legally log time. It seems to be something that's not taught much these days.
 
Yeah, I know. I even asked a FAA inspector about that, but here we are arguing basically the same principle. 2 pilots in an airplane certified for one. BOTH pilots logging time as PIC. I'm sorry, I just don't see anything wrong here.
 
There is a difference between what is technically legal logging per the FAA and what an airline wants to see. You certainly would not log PIC time in the Rjet if you were typed but not PIC, just because you were "sole manipulator" for that leg. That is, unless you want your next airline to laugh at you during the interview. Airlines even usually specify PIC time as "legal responsibility for the aicraft" ie, signed for it. There is only one person on any given flight that fits that definition, and it aint no SIC guy who has his hands on the yoke.

What you could do, is log the 91 legs, but make sure you noted in the logbook what it is "PIC per 61.xxx (whatever the reg is that you are logging it under)" That way you could use the time to move up to PIC with that company, or another smaller company. Then when you apply at an airline, do not count that time. Keep it separate and noted as what it is.

This way, you are legal, and also complying with the large airline standard of what PIC time is...you signing for the aircraft.


As far as Castle Aviation, I grew up 10 min from there. Its a nice company they have a good reputation. They are not bottom feeders and most of the pilots have been there a long time.
 
Do they have a CJ now too? I could have sworn I was at TEB and the CJ in front of me was using the call-sign "Castle".

...are they hiring?

...anyone else at CAK hiring?

-mini
 
Propilot said:
There is a difference between what is technically legal logging per the FAA and what an airline wants to see. You certainly would not log PIC time in the Rjet if you were typed but not PIC, just because you were "sole manipulator" for that leg. That is, unless you want your next airline to laugh at you during the interview. Airlines even usually specify PIC time as "legal responsibility for the aicraft" ie, signed for it. There is only one person on any given flight that fits that definition, and it aint no SIC guy who has his hands on the yoke.

What you could do, is log the 91 legs, but make sure you noted in the logbook what it is "PIC per 61.xxx (whatever the reg is that you are logging it under)" That way you could use the time to move up to PIC with that company, or another smaller company. Then when you apply at an airline, do not count that time. Keep it separate and noted as what it is.

This way, you are legal, and also complying with the large airline standard of what PIC time is...you signing for the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Exactly the way I did it. I have one column labeled "61 PIC" for just those occasions.

By the way John, it is not universal that the 135 world disowns "Part 61 PIC" the way that 121 seems to.

I think it is disingenuous to give blanket condemnation of sole manipulator PIC when it is a valid and legal practice. I do believe it is important that people understand the difference between logged PIC and served PIC, but that's no reason to tell people that they can't log it period. Make sure people understand that many companies (maybe even most, but certainly not all) do not recognize this time as PIC for their purposes, and I always advocate logging it in a separate column for just that reason.
 
Just say no to these types of operations.

Especially in a time like this when QUALIFIED aviators are looking for jobs.
 
jhugz said:
Hmm...especially because I would be undercutting all those Caravan Right Seaters
Click to expand...

If they haven't paid for the position I have no problem with them and I doubt others do either. What people have a problem with is PAYING FOR YOUR JOB. If they need you, they should hire you, train you at their cost and then PAY YOU for the services rendered.
Do you not think that by paying for this you're lowering the bar for others? If more people have such a poor attitude that they think this is ok, and then go out and do it then you're just setting an example for other operators and in an extreme example we'll all be forced to pay for training if we want to work one day. Just like the guys that went to the regionals 10-15 years ago had to.
Of course, aviation is full of dirtbag, sleeze balls and people with too much money on their hands that make it diffucult for the rest of us that earn our jobs through hard work, study and sheer determination. Thanks buddy.
Why don't you go back to serving drinks and peanuts?
 
BajtheJino said:
Why don't you go back to serving drinks and peanuts?
Click to expand...

I lost my seniority and don't want to be Newark based for an FA job. I have a pretty high chance for rehire as an FO there and it is my goal to go back and work for them. I need something to get me over the stretch because I can't find a flight instructing job anywhere.

I don't mind paying my dues flight instructing but I can't find anywhere to do that.
 
jhugz said:
Hmm...especially because I would be undercutting all those Caravan Right Seaters
Click to expand...

Especially the ones who are paying a company to sit there. . .hah.

Do you really not see the inherent issues with paying to sit in a plane that doesn't need you? Especially when professionals (yes Professionals - not Hobbyists) are trying to maintain a standard for this profession and it's various segments.

But hey man - do what you want, you very well might be a lost cause, but don't expect any of us to convince you that this is a great thing to do.
 
Usually when you get your commercial cert and CFI.I.M tickets, you get paid to fly.
<O:p</O:p

If no pilots were willing to pay for these checkouts, or signed up for these "I'll fly your twin for free" scams, then they'd have to pay pilots - what a concept - but alas, they seem to have people lining up to pay them. And people wonder why commercial aviation has so many low paying jobs? Never mind the fact that you're willing to fly commercially for free - but actually PAY somebody to do it? Amazing!<O:p</O:p

I'd just assume write the time in my logbook :sarcasm: than participate in one of these so called internship/scams. Keep taking the profession down the toilet....<O:p</O:p
 
Did you ever get clarification on why you need to pay for a 135 sic checkride, when you won't be a legal pilot on the 135 legs?
 
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