Mental Health

knot4u said:
The billing is the reason why I brought up a "man of the cloth". I understand religion has been less and less popular in the last few decades. I'm not a religious person, I saw too much hypocrisy during my formative years, but I'm also not an atheist. Sometimes a person just needs someone to listen to them and there are folks out there that have had at least some modicum of training in counseling that are willing to listen for free. I've had some deep conversations with some of these folks sitting around a midnight campfire in the middle of the desert after a few beers. I always felt better in the morning, just saying...
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Yeah, I think that is actually a pretty good idea, in the context that we were talking about.
 
knot4u said:
If you were to just vent to a chaplain would that get you dinged? I'm not saying you should embrace a religion, but oftentimes they're available to hear someone out and give advice while also not charging you for it.
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It's not the worst idea in the world, but it may not be the solution everyone is looking for.

I'll admit, I had lost touch with my faith over the years and I've now found myself getting back in touch with it (albeit, a COMPLETELY different denomination that's pretty opposite of what I grew up with). I can say that, personally, I think becoming more faithful has helped me a lot in my daily life and has strengthened my personal relationships.

Having said that, though, I think that a lot of mental health problems are well outside the scope of spiritual counseling and probably need a trained mental health professional to help deal with them. I'm not saying that talking to clergy or someone in the church won't help. It just may not be enough.
 
ozziecat35 said:
So what is there out there for a pilot who for lack of a better term, is ok, but just needs someone to talk to in order to sort out some stuff? I imagine we all have stressors, some easier to deal with than others...I know I have family members who have weekly or bi-weekly sessions just to download events / etc. It has felt like my entire career those things are off limits to me.
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I thankfully haven't needed to use it but there's an account I follow on instagram of someone who calls herself The Aviation Therapist. It's more along the lines of "life coaching." Like I said, haven't talked to her, but her meme game is funny and she seems like a legitimately good person.
 
ozziecat35 said:
So what is there out there for a pilot who for lack of a better term, is ok, but just needs someone to talk to in order to sort out some stuff? I imagine we all have stressors, some easier to deal with than others...I know I have family members who have weekly or bi-weekly sessions just to download events / etc. It has felt like my entire career those things are off limits to me.
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Cash pay for mental health counseling, if its an option.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Another issue is therapists themselves, most of them refuse to help anyone who they feel is a liability and a lot of them are very bad at their jobs and don't know how to deal with complex situations or nuerodivergent folks who operate abnormally. It's not like it's something that works for everyone, its only one method. Some people legitimately need meds, but the FAA says even if those meds only make you a safer pilot, they're still meds so gtfo. Telling a therapist "I want help, not a prescription" often just ends up with their lazy assess saying "well have you tried a prescription?" rather than attempting to deal with messy stuff that could get back to them if you went postal or beebo ect.

Out of everyone I know in the world, most of the messed up folks are career airline pilots honestly. A lifetime of having to lie to fly and self medicating within the lines.
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ChasenSFO said:
Both personal experiences and a lifetime of listening to others experiences who have ongoing issues but careers in aviation that come with an amount of discretion and trust. AKA; liability. I'm 34 now, from the time I was 5 or 6 therapists were thrown at me for my audacious behavior, 100% of the time it's either "let's try meds and see what happens" or "we aren't a good fit, best of luck". A brick wall. I have friends on this site with similar experiences who either couldn't get help or the help tried to bite them. You can't unpack your issues to people you don't trust not to rat you out. Pilots, cops, ect. can't get much out of that kind of relationship.
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A therapist typically isn't going to refuse to offer their professional skills to a patient/perspective patient. Or just drop someone on a dime. There's always reasons. Most are usually glaring, to the therapist. Maybe even the patient, but not always.

The most common reason that a therapist/psychologist is going to refuse their services is that the person is an unreliable narrator. Due to problems with accuracy, credibility, maturity and a persons mental state. Other common reason is that the person isn't open to receiving help/advice, or is a liar. Or is defensive/combative/argumentative. Another common example, is similar to not clicking with a CFI during training, you and your therapist also might not click. And one or both people decide it best to end the relationship. These types of behaviors are counter productive to treatment, so its just better to cut bait, often it isn't personal. But yes liability does play a big part in those decisions.

As a personal example, my younger sister recently informed me a few months ago that her last two therapist ended their professional relationships with her. She feels that she has childhood trauma in the form of neglect. My mom was/is a good person. But she loved and valued education. With her five degrees she helped provide a very good life growing up for our family. But my sister feels that with my mom getting her second Masters and her choice afterwards to get her Ph.d, that she was neglected. She feels growing up that she didn't get the same attention that my two older siblings and I did. My mom even feels the same and has a lot of guilt about it and has said its her biggest regret. My sister explained that she was told by her therapist, that she was closed off and defensive. She said both therapist ended up asking her what was her motivation in seeking help, if she wasn't willing to put in the work and was always closed down to any and all suggestions? She says she's done with counseling. Her choice based upon her behaviors.

Not all therapist/psychologist are well versed on every issue. For example my mom though she never practiced got her Master in Psychology and went on to get a certificate specializing in treating children with social and developmental disorders. Because she was teaching Special Education for years dealing with children with learning disabilities, neurodiviergent disorders and developmentally delayed kids. Trauma's and behaviors weren't her bag. My stepfather was a Psy.D. When he was alive he owned his own counseling business. He didn't like the leaving money on the table as he used to often say. So he got multiple certificates (like an add-on in aviation) to be able to be well versed in a multitude of treatments so he wouldn't have to send a perspective patient out of his office on a referral to someone else.

If he had a specialty it was treating kids, forensics and trauma related disorders and behaviors. He always said that his favorite patients to have were borderline, sociopaths/psychopaths and narcissist. He explained that they tend to like counseling, because they love the attention aspect of it and that they love to talk about themselves and hear their own voices. He always demanded six months cash up front from them though, because they could usually afford it. As they tend to have short attention spans and typically don't finish counseling. But he didn't care because he already had their money. Neurodivergent patients weren't his bag, it was more my mothers. Likewise she didn't deal with the Cluster B & C types at least in a therapist setting. Most therapist, psychologist and Social Workers, (who if they have their MSW (Masters of Social Work and an LCSW cert. Licensed Clinic Social Worker are therapist.) on their websites are going to list their qualifications and specialities. So, if you're neurodivergent it makes no sense to go to a clincian that specializes in say early childhood development disorders. Also therapist, Social Workers and psychologist can't prescribe meds. Most psychiatrist or nurse practitioners with a mental health Master's or doctorate degree only prescibe meds and don't offer therapy. Because they're medical professionals and not therapist/psychologist. I'd seek out a therapist/psychologist, well versed in congitive behavioral therapy (CBT). Or the new fangled Dialectic behavioral therapy (DBT). Both have their foundation in talk therapy.

Hope this helps some.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
That's how things worked with pain medication for about 10 years. So not surprised at all.
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The opioid crisis was different. Those doctors were getting a kickback from big pharma, for prescribing opioids maliciously and irresponsibly. Most of them are in jail now, or took a plea and surrendered their license. It's a lot harder now to get prescribed opioids. There's a lot more regulation and checks than before. But yes, America does have a huge medical drug culture. Most people want a quick fix, i.e. a pill and don't want multiple sessions of talk therapy to drudge up the issues that they've been running from for years.
 
ozziecat35 said:
So what is there out there for a pilot who for lack of a better term, is ok, but just needs someone to talk to in order to sort out some stuff? I imagine we all have stressors, some easier to deal with than others...I know I have family members who have weekly or bi-weekly sessions just to download events / etc. It has felt like my entire career those things are off limits to me.
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At your airline, SOAR
 
Therapists take cash, too.

It’s the diagnosis from a qualified professional that the FAA cares about documenting. One can explain to a therapist that they would prefer to avoid any diagnosis, at least at first. At that point it’s just talking with sound ground rules. Might as well be clergy.

That might be enough for a fair number of people, at least to take the edge off of things. More power to you if you have a partner, friend, or colleague for those kinds of talks.

A therapist can offer an objective view of things, where “things” includes what is on your mind and, maybe more importantly, exploring how you are living with them, and maybe a different perspective that your thinkmeats did not have.

Everything Max said about there being a variety of personalities, specializations, and abilities is accurate. Talk therapy is a certain kind of relationship between two people where both can choose boundaries. If the therapist is not comfortable without the ability to make a diagnosis and use the tools unlocked by that, they can decline to proceed with no repercussions. The same applies if you just don’t vibe with the them. Some pairings just don’t have to be forced.

I am not advocating that you pilats play games with the aeromedical paperwork, but I do highlight the difference between “HAVE YOU EVER BEEN DIAGNOSED” versus health maintenance.
 
Does every ALPA shop have a peer to peer program? I’m not super familiar with it but I know it’s a thing at my shop. I’m assuming it’s a sort of “I need to vent to someone” thing? That said, for me at least it can be refreshing to get perspectives from someone not in the industry too. I feel like sometimes we can be so accustomed to the things we deal with and our schedules it’s nice to hear from someone who realizes every holiday away from home isn’t really the norm and can empathize more, even if it is part of the job.
 
Mine has a P2P but I'm not sure about every shop. When I good friend was fired out of the SFO base while on probation I called the hotline. In my experience it was a good thing. I felt I needed to speak with someone who wasn't a mountain biker who lived in their van. Since I was on vacation at Whistler. Most of the people I was spending time with changed jobs seasonally and being treated unfairly by coworkers and employers was just sort of a fact of life. No one really "got" how a friend of mine was being cheated out of a major life changing opportunity. One that I helped him get.

I felt the P2P person I spoke with did a great job for a volunteer.
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
A therapist typically isn't going to refuse to offer their professional skills to a patient/perspective patient. Or just drop someone on a dime. There's always reasons. Most are usually glaring, to the therapist. Maybe even the patient, but not always.

The most common reason that a therapist/psychologist is going to refuse their services is that the person is an unreliable narrator. Due to problems with accuracy, credibility, maturity and a persons mental state. Other common reason is that the person isn't open to receiving help/advice, or is a liar. Or is defensive/combative/argumentative. Another common example, is similar to not clicking with a CFI during training, you and your therapist also might not click. And one or both people decide it best to end the relationship. These types of behaviors are counter productive to treatment, so its just better to cut bait, often it isn't personal. But yes liability does play a big part in those decisions.

As a personal example, my younger sister recently informed me a few months ago that her last two therapist ended their professional relationships with her. She feels that she has childhood trauma in the form of neglect. My mom was/is a good person. But she loved and valued education. With her five degrees she helped provide a very good life growing up for our family. But my sister feels that with my mom getting her second Masters and her choice afterwards to get her Ph.d, that she was neglected. She feels growing up that she didn't get the same attention that my two older siblings and I did. My mom even feels the same and has a lot of guilt about it and has said its her biggest regret. My sister explained that she was told by her therapist, that she was closed off and defensive. She said both therapist ended up asking her what was her motivation in seeking help, if she wasn't willing to put in the work and was always closed down to any and all suggestions? She says she's done with counseling. Her choice based upon her behaviors.

Not all therapist/psychologist are well versed on every issue. For example my mom though she never practiced got her Master in Psychology and went on to get a certificate specializing in treating children with social and developmental disorders. Because she was teaching Special Education for years dealing with children with learning disabilities, neurodiviergent disorders and developmentally delayed kids. Trauma's and behaviors weren't her bag. My stepfather was a Psy.D. When he was alive he owned his own counseling business. He didn't like the leaving money on the table as he used to often say. So he got multiple certificates (like an add-on in aviation) to be able to be well versed in a multitude of treatments so he wouldn't have to send a perspective patient out of his office on a referral to someone else.

If he had a specialty it was treating kids, forensics and trauma related disorders and behaviors. He always said that his favorite patients to have were borderline, sociopaths/psychopaths and narcissist. He explained that they tend to like counseling, because they love the attention aspect of it and that they love to talk about themselves and hear their own voices. He always demanded six months cash up front from them though, because they could usually afford it. As they tend to have short attention spans and typically don't finish counseling. But he didn't care because he already had their money. Neurodivergent patients weren't his bag, it was more my mothers. Likewise she didn't deal with the Cluster B & C types at least in a therapist setting. Most therapist, psychologist and Social Workers, (who if they have their MSW (Masters of Social Work and an LCSW cert. Licensed Clinic Social Worker are therapist.) on their websites are going to list their qualifications and specialities. So, if you're neurodivergent it makes no sense to go to a clincian that specializes in say early childhood development disorders. Also therapist, Social Workers and psychologist can't prescribe meds. Most psychiatrist or nurse practitioners with a mental health Master's or doctorate degree only prescibe meds and don't offer therapy. Because they're medical professionals and not therapist/psychologist. I'd seek out a therapist/psychologist, well versed in congitive behavioral therapy (CBT). Or the new fangled Dialectic behavioral therapy (DBT). Both have their foundation in talk therapy.

Hope this helps some.
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Lol the thing is I'm always honest with them (they often think I'm not, but I always am), but eventually they always get to a point where they want to either medicate me or tell me they won't be able to keep something confidential or, in a few cases, I've actually been told that they can't help me flat out because I'm "wide awake" for all the bad decisions I make vs substance abuse or not knowing better or things happening involuntary. Since having a kid, I've been having instant rejection because they think it's too messy to keep things under wrap (which is terrifying as I've seen people snitched out to CPS over things that make my life look like Candy Land). But I'm just some guy who wants to be happy, yet seeking therapy has actually always resulted in me feeling worse about myself. For decades. And I know a few others in the same boat.

One size does not fit all. And the common theme is "stop putting your ability to fly over fixing the rest of your life". But as pilots, we know that defeats the purpose, as I'm coming to them saying I need to color within certain lines. And they don't like that. But it's not unique to me. Therapists don't write prescriptions of course, but they DAMN sure absolutely do tell you "You really need to open up to medication/diagnosis".
 
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ChasenSFO said:
Lol the thing is I'm always honest with them (they often think I'm not, but I always am), but eventually they always get to a point where they want to either medicate me or tell me they won't be able to keep something confidential or, in a few cases, I've actually been told that they can't help me flat out because I'm "wide awake" for all the bad decisions I make vs substance abuse or not knowing better or things happening involuntary. Since having a kid, I've been having instant rejection because they think it's too messy to keep things under wrap (which is terrifying as I've seen people snitched out to CPS over things that make my life look like Candy Land). But I'm just some guy who wants to be happy, yet seeking therapy has actually always resulted in me feeling worse about myself. For decades. And I know a few others in the same boat.

One size does not fit all. And the common theme is "stop putting your ability to fly over fixing the rest of your life". But as pilots, we know that defeats the purpose, as I'm coming to them saying I need to color within certain lines. And they don't like that. But it's not unique to me. Therapists don't write prescriptions of course, but they DAMN sure absolutely do tell you "You really need to open up to medication/diagnosis".
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I wonder why medication is always the answer? "We have a pill for that!", just seems so ubiquitous these days. I'm sure some people have something wrong with their brain chemistry but I find it hard to believe that the overwhelming majority of the patients need medication. Talking to someone for an hour or so and then prescribing them mind altering drugs without actually trying to find the root of the problem just seems to compound the issue rather than resolve it. The easiest solution to a problem is rarely the most effective one. Putting a band-aid on a femoral artery that's leaking isn't going to stop the bleeding. Maybe I should go find the doctor that scrambled my brothers brain with psychotropic drugs rather than trying to figure out what was actually bothering him. I see lots of folks here defending the dude that shot that CEO, would you consider me a hero as well?
 
knot4u said:
I see lots of folks here defending the dude that shot that CEO, would you consider me a hero as well?
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It's obviously a spectrum, but I would have mercy on the MD. It's one thing to be a licensed, middle-class professional put in an untenable position by the barking-at-cars system we have concocted for ourselves, it's another thing entirely to be at the tiller of the worst-offending organization normalizing this deviance from obvious sense.
 
knot4u said:
I wonder why medication is always the answer? "We have a pill for that!", just seems so ubiquitous these days. I'm sure some people have something wrong with their brain chemistry but I find it hard to believe that the overwhelming majority of the patients need medication. Talking to someone for an hour or so and then prescribing them mind altering drugs without actually trying to find the root of the problem just seems to compound the issue rather than resolve it. The easiest solution to a problem is rarely the most effective one. Putting a band-aid on a femoral artery that's leaking isn't going to stop the bleeding. Maybe I should go find the doctor that scrambled my brothers brain with psychotropic drugs rather than trying to figure out what was actually bothering him. I see lots of folks here defending the dude that shot that CEO, would you consider me a hero as well?
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Someone who is trying their best and winds up having their efforts turned into negative because of a broken system. Is far different than the person that makes the system broken intentionally, all for shareholder value.
 
Boris Badenov said:
It's obviously a spectrum, but I would have mercy on the MD. It's one thing to be a licensed, middle-class professional put in an untenable position by the barking-at-cars system we have concocted for ourselves, it's another thing entirely to be at the tiller of the worst-offending organization normalizing this deviance from obvious sense.
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I'd agree but the CEO works for the board of directors, who in turn work for the shareholders, who are just wanting the maximum return on their investment. So if it's a publicly traded company who is actually at fault in the UHC debacle? I'm not saying I have a simple and obvious answer to remedy the situation but I don't think shooting anyone is going to fix it.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Someone who is trying their best and winds up having their efforts turned into negative because of a broken system. Is far different than the person that makes the system broken intentionally, all for shareholder value.
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Do you have an investment portfolio and how closely do you monitor it?
 
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