R
Roger, Roger
Guest
I seem to remember you saying the 117 really, really liked it's speed.
Max Airspeed at 10k feet
- Thread starter av8or91
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I seem to remember you saying the 117 really, really liked it's speed.
WacoFan
Bigly
This rule (250 below 10,000) came about because of TWA 553 in 1967. TWA553 was a DC-9 that collided with a Baron in Urbana, Ohio. ATC cleared TWA to descend from the 20's to 3,000 going into Dayton and they collided with a Baron at 4,500 or so. The Baron was not talking to ATC and the DC-9 was going real fast and slammed into it - no time to see and avoid. My Grandpa flew the initial acceptance flights for the DC-9 and created the training for the airplane. By 1967 he was running the training department at TWA and was kind of the "expert" on the airplane. He was part of the accident investigation and that crash led to the 250 under 10k rule as well as led to TCA's. He had a huge box full of papers and his notes from the investigation, plus they gave him a personal copy of all the documents and reports (I think because he had to testify so he got a copy separate from TWA). Anyway, that was fascinating reading - really amazed me the volume of work that there was.
Actually, 250 below 10K came out 7 years prior to the accident you cite. The 250 below 10k rule was the result of the December 1960 midair collision between UAL 826 (DC-8) / TWA 266 (L-1049) over New York City. The UAL jet was in excess of 500 kts when it overshot it's holding fix by a good number of miles.
With the permanent 67.5 degree wing sweep, it needed its speed. I can still remember once circling to land following a TACAN approach where I was still fairly heavyweight. Circling speed was 215 kts, and final approach speed was 200.
WacoFan
Bigly
I am probably mis-remembering. I was under the impression that afterr the NYC collision they changed the rules but it was something like 250, under 14,000 or so, within 50 NM of the airport, and only for arriving aircraft. I thought that was the initial rule, then after Urbana it was just a blanket "under 10,000). I'll have to look that up. As I said, I'm probably mis-remembering things!
Naw, you're probably right on the blanket rule. The rule started as 250 below 10 within 30nm of the airport. Subsequently made blanket, probably after the accident you cite; but the original ruling with the restriction came from NYC. Additionally, rules like reporting equipment malfunctions to ATC, slowing to hold speed 3 mins prior to the hold fix, and requring all turbojet and aircraft over 12.5K to have DME, came from this accident.
seagull
Well-Known Member
Yes, for a civilian aircraft it is relatively fast. Final approach speed flaps 35 at max LGW is 167kts min, with up to 20 kts of wind additives.
WacoFan
Bigly
There is a picture somewhere - maybe Airliners.net - that shows that DC-9 in Pittsburg at the gate as it's getting ready to go for Dayton. Weird they would have that all the way from 1967. I remember Grandpa said that walking around that wreck was a bleak moment of his career.
Lots of tight slow turns on some of the departures in Europe so we'll just leave the flaps out and accelerate later. But generally speaking, there are quite a few airports where you do the, what is it, the NADP1 (or is it 2?) where your acceleration height is 3000 AFE so you're pretty slow anyway.
WacoFan
Bigly
The reason I thought that was because they didn't whack the TWA pilots for speed - just failure to see and avoid. The speed was cited as a contributing factor, but it wasn't a FAR violation either. Those guys were doing well in excess of 300 knots when they slammed into the guy at 4,500 feet. I'm pretty sure I don't remember the report saying "TWA is at fault because of violating rule "xyz" and busting the speed limit". Again, I'll have to bone up on that. There were for sure speed regs put in after 1960 - but my thought is that they weren't all encompassing because the TWA crew didn't bust a reg being over 300 knots below 10,000.
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
I've only flown 6 legs in the beast but, yeah, NADP 1 is your 3000 ft acceleration 1500 ft thrust reduction departure. Of course, my check captain preferred to do NADP-1 max flaps all the time, even domestic :dunno: . I think he was paranoid about noise sensors.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
NADP1 is in the book as the "standard" departure profile at our company, but we almost always do NADP2 (1000' AFE accel) unless it's specifically required. I think we'd be getting yelled at for being a speedbump out of the major hubs like DFW if we did NADP1 all the time. We're already a speedbump at ECON descent speed, anyway.
Anyway, for the original question: Yeah, I accelerate if we're level at 10,000. To quote my XJT IOE captain: "This is a jet. Jets go fast!"
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
Hah, I wish I could say I haven't had an F-bomb dropped on me for not inputting .833/290 instead of econ descent into VNAV after my arrival briefing! You guys actually do the econ descents?
NADP2 is supposed to be the domestic standard for us, per the schoolhouse.....but the schoolhouse is a very different place from the real world, as I'm learning yet again.
NADP2 is supposed to be the domestic standard for us, per the schoolhouse.....but the schoolhouse is a very different place from the real world, as I'm learning yet again.
NADP1 is in the book as the "standard" departure profile at our company, but we almost always do NADP2 (1000' AFE accel) unless it's specifically required. I think we'd be getting yelled at for being a speedbump out of the major hubs like DFW if we did NADP1 all the time. We're already a speedbump at ECON descent speed, anyway.
Anyway, for the original question: Yeah, I accelerate if we're level at 10,000. To quote my XJT IOE captain: "This is a jet. Jets go fast!"
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
We do use ECON speeds, but they're not too terribly slow (actually right around what you guys put in manually). Still funny that the RJs are getting slowed behind us!
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
I've never had the need to go 250 below 10 expect in an emergency in the SIM. In the 727 is is darn noisy if you got that fast. IIRC you can exceed 250 below 10 if you are in internalation waters.
If we have to hold, we usually have to ask for higher than standard holding speeds.
If we have to hold, we usually have to ask for higher than standard holding speeds.
Corporate Pilot
Well-Known Member
Maybe someone can answer this question for me without me looking it up. Coming back from the HOU area into ADS at around 15000 descending center asked our speed and I said 290K, they then cleared me to 8000 and said maintain speed. Later we were handed over to approach and at the same time center said normal speed.
In the US if ATC tells you to go over 250K below 10000 is it legal to do so?
In the US if ATC tells you to go over 250K below 10000 is it legal to do so?
There was a sort of flow-expedite program going in some terminal airspace areas where they were allowing aircraft to exceed 250 below 10k. Don't know if HOU was one of them, but I believe it might have been.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
The way I understand it, the answer is no. Exceeding minimum safe speed or 250 knots below 10,000' MSL requires the approval of the Administrator ("Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may...")
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Pretty sure the greater Houston area was one of them. Thought it ended years (if not decades) ago though.
