Lufthansa Pilots, give 'em hell

[surreal1221]

Yeah, people in this country generally have a problem with people making more money than they do. I read an article on Yahoo this morning about the closing of the GM plant in Janesville, WI. The article stated how some people in Janesville were glad to see their fellow citizens suffering, because they didn't have jobs themselves that paid $28hr with benefits. Sad.

I'm dealing with it first hand.

I'm a member of a exploratory committee to organize local teachers. One of the largest issues the professional educators are having, on top of the state furloughs and lack of appropriate funding to just do their basic duties (not including all the extra nonsense they're not paid for) is highlighting the lack of value of education in the area.

Citizens are complaining because of mis-perceptions on how educators are compensated. For example, thinking that they're paid for the three months their off during the summer when in reality they're paid for the 180 (or 190) days they are on contract and that they can have that money disbursed over 9 paychecks or twelve. Attack the professionals who are giving your children an education. All while complaining about the quality of education. There are options, but people don't want to pay for them. Want more public services, they're going to cost money. Want improved education facilities? They're going to cost money. But the parents, acting as the consumer, want something for free - all the time, everytime. It's just not possible.

Well, anyway - a lot of people in the local area fail to make this connection and they get all jealous on top of proclaiming "they should be happy to have a job."

Wrong.

They are doing everything they can to save their careers.

 

[Maurus]

I'm dealing with it first hand.

I'm a member of a exploratory committee to organize local teachers. One of the largest issues the professional educators are having, on top of the state furloughs and lack of appropriate funding to just do their basic duties (not including all the extra nonsense they're not paid for) is highlighting the lack of value of education in the area.

Citizens are complaining because of mis-perceptions on how educators are compensated. For example, thinking that they're paid for the three months their off during the summer when in reality they're paid for the 180 (or 190) days they are on contract and that they can have that money disbursed over 9 paychecks or twelve. Attack the professionals who are giving your children an education. All while complaining about the quality of education. There are options, but people don't want to pay for them. Want more public services, they're going to cost money. Want improved education facilities? They're going to cost money. But the parents, acting as the consumer, want something for free - all the time, everytime. It's just not possible.

Well, anyway - a lot of people in the local area fail to make this connection and they get all jealous on top of proclaiming "they should be happy to have a job."

Wrong.

They are doing everything they can to save their careers.

Not exactly the best choice for an example considering many countries do more for less money compared to the U.S when it comes to education.

 

[surreal1221]

Not exactly the best choice for an example considering many countries do more for less money compared to the U.S when it comes to education.

It's very much about the utilization and the structures created. Though I wouldn't object to seeing what data you're using to make this determination. By your statement of "do more for less" are you talking about how much a State spends per capita on education funding or the per individual annual salaries of educators in other countries compared to that of US educators?

Though your statement takes a macro position on the educational standards and results across the country. My, and other people's focus, is on the micro environment of protecting local career educator's income, retirement, and job stability. All in the face of individuals who lack enough information to be able to make educated statements about one's annual earnings.

 

[mwflyer]

I don't think that's true. I think what people have a problem with is some people making more money and complaining about it.

The guys at GM had nothing to complain about when they were working at home making good money. Even now they are not complaining, just speaking of the sacrifice they decided to make.

 

[mwflyer]

Oh yeah, surreal. I know what you are talking about. One of the local papers did an article on what one of the school districts was paying their teachers. They had to disable the comments on the web site. The people exploded when they saw teachers were making over 70k, with 3 months off!!! The horror!!

My thought is, if you think 70k is overpaid for somebody that does in your opinion nothing, then apply for the job. Dont try to bring somebody else down because you're not making that.

 

[HughesAirwest]

I gotta say I am a fan of the 4 day strike. Seems to be just as effective without the all or nothing drama of an American strike (if it ever happens).

That comment from the passenger is refreshing, not many Americans have that kind of world view.

 

[surreal1221]

Oh yeah, surreal. I know what you are talking about. One of the local papers did an article on what one of the school districts was paying their teachers. They had to disable the comments on the web site. The people exploded when they saw teachers were making over 70k, with 3 months off!!! The horror!!

My thought is, if you think 70k is overpaid for somebody that does in your opinion nothing, then apply for the job. Dont try to bring somebody else down because you're not making that.

Yes, because making 70k for 9 months of service is just outrageous when you have a Masters of PhD.

How dare those educated people make so much money.

Yuk-Yuk!

 

[Xiph]

My thought is, if you think 70k is overpaid for somebody that does in your opinion nothing, then apply for the job. Dont try to bring somebody else down because you're not making that.

"Yeah, I'd do that, but I don't want to deal with taking the time and money to get the additional education and the certification, and having to work with kids day after day would drive me up the wall....but still, $70k for that is ridiculously high."

 

[iceman21]

Yes, because making 70k for 9 months of service is just outrageous when you have a Masters of PhD.

How dare those educated people make so much money.

Yuk-Yuk!

In all of this conversation on teachers pay I have not heard one mention of performance standards. I will leave it at that to keep from de-railing the thread.

 

[jtrain609]

In all of this conversation on teachers pay I have not heard one mention of performance standards. I will leave it at that to keep from de-railing the thread.

One thing you should realize is that flying is one of the few careers where there is a systemic checking process to make sure that people are performing their jobs properly.

How many lawyers does the ABA disbar per year? How many doctors does the AMA revoke licenses to?

 

[iceman21]

One thing you should realize is that flying is one of the few careers where there is a systemic checking process to make sure that people are performing their jobs properly.

How many lawyers does the ABA disbar per year? How many doctors does the AMA revoke licenses to?

I realize that jtrain, however, your statement isn't relevant to the conversation. Pilots, Lawyers, and Doctors are all in different professions, with each profession being held to different standards.

The point that I am making is that some teachers (and their unions) are all bent out of shape for getting canned for under performing. This country does a poor job of holding teachers to a performance standard.

 

[surreal1221]

I realize that jtrain, however, your statement isn't relevant to the conversation. Pilots, Lawyers, and Doctors are all in different professions, with each profession being held to different standards.

The point that I am making is that some teachers (and their unions) are all bent out of shape for getting canned for under performing. This country does a poor job of holding teachers to a performance standard.

You a teacher?

Teachers are released and not offered contracts on a annual basis in Georgia, that's how professional standards are maintained. Monthly performance reviews, satisfactory completion does not promise anyone a contract when they come up for review.

What methods and tools would you utilize to evaluate a teacher's performance? Under what conditions would you release a teacher? In a per-individual contract and a collective bargaining environment?

But, I'll wait for you to answer the question posed before I go any further.

 

[skydog2]

I realize that jtrain, however, your statement isn't relevant to the conversation. Pilots, Lawyers, and Doctors are all in different professions, with each profession being held to different standards.

The point that I am making is that some teachers (and their unions) are all bent out of shape for getting canned for under performing. This country does a poor job of holding teachers to a performance standard.

And how do you decide if a teacher is underperforming? When a student does well he gets the credit, but when the student performs poorly everyone wants to blame the teacher.

 

[WacoFan]

In all of this conversation on teachers pay I have not heard one mention of performance standards. I will leave it at that to keep from de-railing the thread.

Excellent point.

One thing you should realize is that flying is one of the few careers where there is a systemic checking process to make sure that people are performing their jobs properly.

How many lawyers does the ABA disbar per year? How many doctors does the AMA revoke licenses to?

Excellent counter-point. One thought is that the market many times regulates attorney's, doctors and other professions. The most effective doctors (innovative, skilled, etc) have backlogs of patients. The most effective/innovative attorneys have backlogs of clients. I know that is no "regulation" but those professions are subject to the free market and people vote with their checkbook. That is one way of regulation.

And how do you decide if a teacher is underperforming? When a student does well he gets the credit, but when the student performs poorly everyone wants to blame the teacher.

Teachers need to have some oversight and accountability, but not without dramatically reforming the administration of the schools and all of the things on top of teachers. Saying "Teachers need accountability and performance measures" is a great thing and I would agree - but without a top down study of the education system it is silly. It would be like saying "Colgan pilots alone need to be accountable with no oversight or actions against management".

 

[JoelT]

Excellent counter-point. One thought is that the market many times regulates attorney's, doctors and other professions. The most effective doctors (innovative, skilled, etc) have backlogs of patients. The most effective/innovative attorneys have backlogs of clients. I know that is no "regulation" but those professions are subject to the free market and people vote with their checkbook. That is one way of regulation.

In a perfect world, sure. But, how many quacks have we heard of that were raking it in? Two of the most recent high-profile cases were Kanye's mother and Michael Jackson. Eventually, those docs screwed up enough to get caught but, not after many decades of them practicing.

Where's the devil's advocate emoticon?

 

[challenger]

Ronald Reagan them. . . . Oh wait this is the Socialist utopia known as Europe! :insane:

 

[surreal1221]

Teachers need to have some oversight and accountability, but not without dramatically reforming the administration of the schools and all of the things on top of teachers. Saying "Teachers need accountability and performance measures" is a great thing and I would agree - but without a top down study of the education system it is silly. It would be like saying "Colgan pilots alone need to be accountable with no oversight or actions against management".

Teachers have some oversight and accountability.

Though it is extremely easy for tax paying citizens to complain and demand greater accountability and oversight when in fact they have zero clue about the performance standards that must be met, and the numerous ways of removal of a teacher.

The States enjoy their educational system structures because the Federal Government does not administer the programs. Those who are demanding greater accountability and oversight, I'd love to hear where this increase would come from and from what agencies would administer such elements.

If you're really that interested in the ways your local school systems or board of educations hire, evaluate, and potentially remove teachers than I recommend attending - on a consistent basis - local board of education meetings and make a couple phone calls.

Local education is highly reflective of the individuals living in the community. If the citizens value education, then they will be more involved in their child's life and thus care enough to get involved. Teachers love that, administrators love it.

Those areas that lack real involvment by the citizens are going to have larger issues, especially in regards to the quality of employment.

Otherwise it would appear many people are quickly casting blame and doubt upon a highly undervalued profession and system within this country. A real shame.