Logging Flight Time w/out a Takeoff?

FlyingMustard

FlyingMustard

Well-Known Member
Hello All,

I had a recent discussion with several fellow pilots about if you are allowed to log flight time for a "flight" that did not actually leave the ground. My stance is that, per the regs (Part 1), if you taxi the airplane but never end up taking off due to weather, a system failure, or whatever else warrants a no-go decision you don't actually get to log hours. The other side of the argument is that you left the ramp with the intent to fly and so the time is log-able. One was allowed to log the time it took to taxi to/from the ramp after a system failure occurred prior to takeoff by a check airman, and the other was told by a DPE that moving the aircraft with the intent to fly was log-able regardless of the outcome.

Thanks in advance for any of your thoughts.
 
I don't log the hours, because I don't log taxi time. I log flight time.....takeoff to landing. But that's just me. For me, it's hokey to log taxi time, so I personally don't.
 
If flying under 121, 135 or other regs with flight time limits taxi time MUST be counted for the purposes of those limits. This includes such things as getting de-iced.
Since CFIs have flight time limits while you would not be required to log this time you would be required to track it and count it aginst your flight time limits.
 
Log what you like, but Blackhawk has the right answer.

It may be 'hokey' to log taxi time, but the FAA still considers it flight time for the purposes of the flight time limitations. I personally log taxi time (if I intended to fly, not just a move the plane to the hangar thing) because I'm still going to get dinged if something goes wrong. Granted, that could happen taxiing to the hangar too, but the regs don't allow me to log that.
 
msmspilot said:
Log what you like, but Blackhawk has the right answer.

It may be 'hokey' to log taxi time, but the FAA still considers it flight time for the purposes of the flight time limitations. I personally log taxi time (if I intended to fly, not just a move the plane to the hangar thing) because I'm still going to get dinged if something goes wrong. Granted, that could happen taxiing to the hangar too, but the regs don't allow me to log that.
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For me, I'm not taxiing or ground holding long enough for anything to make any kind of difference, so its moot for me. If guys want to or need to, great; if not, great too. I just don't count engine idling time on the ground as flight time, whether in ground idle or flight idle. But again, that's me.
 
msmspilot said:
Log what you like, but Blackhawk has the right answer.

It may be 'hokey' to log taxi time, but the FAA still considers it flight time for the purposes of the flight time limitations. I personally log taxi time (if I intended to fly, not just a move the plane to the hangar thing) because I'm still going to get dinged if something goes wrong. Granted, that could happen taxiing to the hangar too, but the regs don't allow me to log that.
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Concur. And I don't see anything hokey....it's the way it's been done for many decades. The regs read flight time starts when the plane first moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight. You're "in command" of that airplane and responsible for it from that moment on until it's parked again at your destination, so no reason to not log it.

That said, if no flight ultimately happens (mechanical requires a taxi back to parking), I log nothing. If I take off, get airborne, then abort and land, I flew and it's logged.
 
Flyboy57 said:
That said, if no flight ultimately happens (mechanical requires a taxi back to parking), I log nothing. If I take off, get airborne, then abort and land, I flew and it's logged.
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Your second sentence is cut and dried, you flew. The first sentence, I'm with you, I don't log anything. But I know guys who will log the whole taxiing time as flight time, even with no flight due to mechanical, whatever. One guy even logged a 2.0 or so. To me, I'm not that hard up for flight hours to where I'd log that.
 
MikeD said:
Your second sentence is cut and dried, you flew. The first sentence, I'm with you, I don't log anything. But I know guys who will log the whole taxiing time as flight time, even with no flight due to mechanical, whatever. One guy even logged a 2.0 or so. To me, I'm not that hard up for flight hours to where I'd log that.
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Agree. If I had to taxi from my hangar to the maintenance shop, there's nothing to log, no matter how long it took. But I almost never took one of my planes to the shop without first warming up the oil with at least a couple touch & goes! I mean, think of the engine, for goodness sake! And that always got logged!
 
Flyboy57 said:
Agree. If I had to taxi from my hangar to the maintenance shop, there's nothing to log, no matter how long it took. But I almost never took one of my planes to the shop without first warming up the oil with at least a couple touch & goes! I mean, think of the engine, for goodness sake! And that always got logged!
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Agreed. I'd do the same.
 
If I am have to repo from the gate to the hanger I'm not logging it. That's like what, .2 or .3? Yeah that's not worth it. If, however, i push from the gate at Point A and pull into a gate at point B at a different airport then I am logging ALL of it. Mostly because I can, but also because my time is already broken down into Block and Credit and I really don't want to worry about actual Flight time as well. Just seems like more of a hassle.
 
MikeD said:
For me, I'm not taxiing or ground holding long enough for anything to make any kind of difference, so its moot for me. If guys want to or need to, great; if not, great too. I just don't count engine idling time on the ground as flight time, whether in ground idle or flight idle. But again, that's me.
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For the record, I meant no disrespect. I understand your opinion on the matter, and given slightly different influences, I might do the same.
 
Reposition on the airfield, not logged. Or taxi out for the purpose of flight, and return to the FBO for MX, WX, etc... also not logged.

Any other time in which I break ground, I log from engine(s) start to shut down.
 
msmspilot said:
For the record, I meant no disrespect. I understand your opinion on the matter, and given slightly different influences, I might do the same.
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Oh none taken. Either way is legit, so it's more a different strokes for different folks, depending on operation one is working under I guess. Such as I can see if it's counted against duty time limits. As part 91, I don't bother personally, but if other regs require it, then I can see that.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Odd. I'm surprised there's even a debate about this. If you block out with the intent of flight, it's flight time. That's how the FAA expects it to be treated for flight time limitations, so I think it's bizarre to log anything otherwise.
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That is also when the FAA can violate you.... Many people are surprised to hear that you don't need a rating to taxi an airplane.
 
Again, my primary point is where the FAA is concerned about flight time limitations.
Another consideration is aircraft time. I know of one case where a captain and FO had their certificates revoked for under reporting flight time (this was pre ACARS) due to the falsification of the airplane logs. Granted, they were dumb, as in reporting "in" when on final approach. They got caught when they reported "in", then had to do a go around at KATL. ATC reported the go around and the company was confused as to how this could be the case when they were at the gate.
 
It's cut and dry in the Army. Time starts on the takeoff roll for an airplane or lifting off the ground for a helicopter.
 
MikeFavinger said:
It's cut and dry in the Army. Time starts on the takeoff roll for an airplane or lifting off the ground for a helicopter.
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That is true for your 759 (or whatever they use now), and for maintenance tracking. But in the eyes of the FAA an Army pilot may log their military flight time in a personal log book IAW FAR 1.
 
MikeD said:
For me, I'm not taxiing or ground holding long enough for anything to make any kind of difference, so its moot for me. If guys want to or need to, great; if not, great too. I just don't count engine idling time on the ground as flight time, whether in ground idle or flight idle. But again, that's me.
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Understand Blackhawk's answer. It's not about trying to amass flight time for that next certificate, rating or job.

The FAA defines flight time as time during which a person "serves as a required pilot crew member" and "commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." [Far 1.1 & 61.1]. And yes, it has and will continue to be used by low-time pilots to add time to their logbook.

But, as Blackhawk points out, the reason for the rule is not so a student pilot can get an extra 0.2 in his logbook toward his 40 hours of training for his private certificate when he's irretrievably fouled the plugs in a 152 on the taxi to the runway. It's to keep pilots and their employers honest with respect to duty time limitations when an airline leaves the gate, heads to the deicing station, waits in a ramp area due to heavy traffic, goes back to the icing station, for a do-over and, due to a mechanical problem, has to return to the gate an hour and a half after leaving it due to a mechanical problem.
 
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