Life at Compass

With regards to the high/hot/unstable scenario, I think everyone has valid and true points, lets just put it all together. You are at the interview for your dream job, then told your'e the CA(PNF) in the above scenario, now WWYD? (Take controls? Let them learn the hard way?) I think we'd all be singing a different tune to the interviewer.

This is a good CRM scenario. It starts with a brief of ATC procedures as a threat, and no you can't brief every scenario. You can say "they like to leave us high and turn early here, so, uh, watch out there buddy" til your face turns blue. And yet, magically a few minutes later, you'll be squirming in your seat wondering when you're gonna get dirtied up properly. Just talking about it prior should mitigate the threat in most cases. But if it doesn't, then what? Like Jtrain used, a subtle cue like "would you like xxx" or "we are still showing a little high" is a soft prompt, and usually enough get things reversed. It says I'm concerned, but I'm not trying to be controlling. Now, if that doesn't get it done, and you're approaching unfixable territory, use the more urgent and commanding "we need to drop the gear","if we don't slow now we we wont make it", "I'll ask for S-turns". That takes the guessing out of it. You do all that before you get to the point of no return. And if for whatever reason it still just doesn't work, go-around. Then, talk about it at the gate. Whether its from a pride deflating go-around or just feeling dumb because the other guy had to step in, the PF should be humbled sufficiently to learn what to do next time. Good CRM doesn't need to go from zero-to-my controls, nor from subtle hints-to-passive aggressive "fine I'll just watch you screw it up" either.
Also, if this is about new guys, here's another angle to look at. We all hope they keep us in the loop and ask for guidance on the fly. This is at the heart, a communication issue. They are likely thinking "Am I looking okay?","Should I start down now?", "FLCH or VS/FPA?", "Is it too early to put flaps(#)/gear down?", "whats fastest way down right now?", and if they would only verbalize that, everything would turn out like it should. But they likely won't because, well, we all have an ego and want the other pilot to think we are a good pilot. Because good pilots don't need help, right? That insecurity hurts CRM, and being aggressive or passive-aggressive as a CA only deepens it. Hopefully we briefed open communication and showcase an approachable vibe so they feel comfortable asking questions. And if they don't verbalizing their thoughts and screw up, and we counter that with good CRM and a constructive debrief, they will hopefully trust us enough with their insecurity to fit in and actually use us as a resource.

I think everything you're saying would happen on every single leg...if we taught a real CRM course. I think the lack of real CRM training is a threat, and that training could mitigate a lot of issues before they happen. Talking the FMA and explaining what you're going to do and how you're going to do it are huge.

One threat I always talk about on every departure brief is the CASTA. It's so easy to get an RA that I always brief that we need to do something to mitigate the climb rate.
 
I think everything you're saying would happen on every single leg...if we taught a real CRM course. I think the lack of real CRM training is a threat, and that training could mitigate a lot of issues before they happen. Talking the FMA and explaining what you're going to do and how you're going to do it are huge.

One threat I always talk about on every departure brief is the CASTA. It's so easy to get an RA that I always brief that we need to do something to mitigate the climb rate.
CASTA?
 
Didn't realize my question would start such a debate!

It is possible to cross SMO at 7,000 and 250kts and get down for a slam dunk. Sometimes you have to fly the airplane and decrease your descent rate to slow down and get some drag out. There's multiple ways to make it work
 
I think this is more a function of a company initial qualification program that has been lacking in teaching newbies how to deal with getting down and slowing down. This particular arrival into LA is just one place where those training deficiencies regularly show themselves.

I agree. I have frequently said that there should be a course in training with some ground school time and then some time to practice in the sim on how to manage your energy in the jet. People could learn what works and what doesn't. It's not easy to learn this when you spend a majority of your sim time being vectored for the approach and you're already fairly low.

Also as @jtrain609 said, we need more CRM training. And I think this problem spans more than just our airline. We are all told that CRM is important, but there isn't enough practice of it.
 
I agree. I have frequently said that there should be a course in training with some ground school time and then some time to practice in the sim on how to manage your energy in the jet. People could learn what works and what doesn't. It's not easy to learn this when you spend a majority of your sim time being vectored for the approach and you're already fairly low.

Also as @jtrain609 said, we need more CRM training. And I think this problem spans more than just our airline. We are all told that CRM is important, but there isn't enough practice of it.

Oh believe me, other airlines teach CRM courses. XJT took their CRM course seriously, and you spent one day per year in recurrent CRM discussing what guys had done wrong on the line, how they got their, how to avoid being there, and how to talk about it if you see yourself heading in the direction of being in an undesired aircraft state.
 
Well that's good.
Didn't have this at my previous operators.

Oh believe me, other airlines teach CRM courses. XJT took their CRM course seriously, and you spent one day per year in recurrent CRM discussing what guys had done wrong on the line, how they got their, how to avoid being there, and how to talk about it if you see yourself heading in the direction of being in an undesired aircraft state.
 
In RE: go arounds

"A go around is a successful maneuver."
-A good pilot

I had one for the first time recently and learned a ton from it. In fact, had I not had to do a go around, I wouldn't have learned as much as I did that day. And it has since helped me improve my piloting skills since.

Just my $.02
 
"We misidentified the appropriate threats, resulting in errors that eventually lead to a UAS. Instead of trying to manage the UAS, we took evasive action in order to exit the UAS and attempt another approach."

Pretty much every ASAP ever.
UAS.. that's some kind of drone right?..
 
I think everything you're saying would happen on every single leg...if we taught a real CRM course. I think the lack of real CRM training is a threat, and that training could mitigate a lot of issues before they happen. Talking the FMA and explaining what you're going to do and how you're going to do it are huge.

One threat I always talk about on every departure brief is the CASTA. It's so easy to get an RA that I always brief that we need to do something to mitigate the climb rate.
Yeah, thanks for that. ;)
 
Didn't realize my question would start such a debate!

It is possible to cross SMO at 7,000 and 250kts and get down for a slam dunk. Sometimes you have to fly the airplane and decrease your descent rate to slow down and get some drag out. There's multiple ways to make it work
It is possible and fairly easy to do. In fact I routinely fly the Arrival, approach, and landing without a break in daydreaming about the boat I am going to buy when I get to mainline.

It's very doable, but it's also [/QUOTE]
some what outside of the norm in a setting that is incredibly regimented. I think some of the newer guys may have an issue with coming to terms with the fact that you can call for gear down before you call for flaps 1. That is allowed. This is a very obvious case of "thinking outside of the box." When you are new to the airplane AND new to this type of flying you are still just trying to understand the synergies of the things INSIDE the box...not a lot left for outer box thinking.
 
So I hear Compass doesn't let you use 141 sim time towards ATP and their changing the multi minimum to 50 now? Had a few friends get hired by Compass and some other guys and seems like their the only ones being strict about this
 
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