Pachong
Well-Known Member
Haha live and learn. Had a CA do this at 370 to cross an at or above altitude a million miles down the road. I put my harness on just to pull his leg. Didn't get the hint. Next day, VS descent with speedbrakes....
Life at Compass
- Thread starter Dugie8
- Start date
Nark
Macho Superpilot
I'm curious to why you'd let your ship go full steam towards an iceberg?
I get it, a lot of us are CFI's, however this isn't a 172. A teaching pointing once you pull the parking brake at the gate.
"I took control from you because through my experience (Insert lieutenant joke here...) we would have been unstable. Tell you what, you have the next leg if you want. Lets grab a coffee."
A dude I just flew said it very well: "I don't have to be right, nor do you have to be right, but WE have to be right."
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Taking the controls isn't the answer either.
If the captain has to take the controls because of a situation where the FO is a little behind the aircraft, then the captain has failed in his responsibility to properly manage the flight. If getting slammed dunked into an airport is a possibility, perhaps include that in the approach briefing. If you are still slammed dunked, create some space for your companion. Ask for a 360, s-turns, something to create time and decrease the task loading in the cockpit.
Furthermore, don't ever hint and hope. Especially with someone who is still newish to the airframe. Don't ask "You sure?" when the FO calls for Flaps 1. It is vague, costs valuable time, and makes the other pilot doubt themselves. Rather, check the speed, give them what they ask for while you tell them they are going to need a lot more drag and why don't we go ahead and extend the landing gear.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
The other side of the coin is that if you're always holding their hand, they'll never figure things out on their own. Letting someone make mistakes is more valuable than helping a new pilot every step of the way.
Not to say that you should let someone crash the plane, but letting someone be high and let them try to fix it? I'd rather have them figure out how to do it now than when they upgrade.
Nark
Macho Superpilot
@ctab5060X
I make mistakes, and am corrected (more often then I'd like to admit) and I correct the same mistakes the dude(tte) sitting 3' to my left makes . This is the cornerstone of CRM.
You are correct, taking the controls is not an absolute answer. There is a time, and a place to to allow mistakes to manifest and learn from them.
However, should those "mistakes" lead to an unstable approach and a go-around is called/commanded (where it could have been prevented like Jtrain alluded too), you have failed as a Captain, and as a mentor.
In a 121 environment, and further in LAX where a lot of this discussion is taking place, is not the place to let this sort of "teaching" to take place. Like I said, if you are worth your 4th gold or silver bar, discuss the issue at the gate, where the moving parts aren't moving.
I make mistakes, and am corrected (more often then I'd like to admit) and I correct the same mistakes the dude(tte) sitting 3' to my left makes . This is the cornerstone of CRM.
You are correct, taking the controls is not an absolute answer. There is a time, and a place to to allow mistakes to manifest and learn from them.
However, should those "mistakes" lead to an unstable approach and a go-around is called/commanded (where it could have been prevented like Jtrain alluded too), you have failed as a Captain, and as a mentor.
In a 121 environment, and further in LAX where a lot of this discussion is taking place, is not the place to let this sort of "teaching" to take place. Like I said, if you are worth your 4th gold or silver bar, discuss the issue at the gate, where the moving parts aren't moving.
ian
Well-Known Member
@amorris311 's FPA descent into LAX is a thing of beauty......
ian
Well-Known Member
personally, i'd rather learn from my mistakes and let the captain let me take it as far as safely possible.......
much better than the CA who I flew with who will remain nameless who asked me if i was ready for the gear 3k ft on a 15 mile final on 24R, the same guy who also decided to move from flaps 1 to flaps 3 without me calling for it on my leg, mind you i was still well above green dot. He got the point when i said "do you want to just fly the approach"...couldn't be happier when that trip was over. The only guy to ever make my no fly list.
Great discussion guys. I will add that it's a pet peeve of mine watching captains vertical speed or fpa down and try to target an airspeed that is close to an idle descent. and then go into briefing or looking at something else. I'm watching the lim annunciation light up and the airspeed increase. Why not just flch? Usually crj guys but that pattern isn't confirmed.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Actually, if you are worth your stripe, the issues are covered before the fact. If LAX is notorious for doing stuff like this, then that needs to be an item that is covered during the approach briefing or even at the departure gate to see if the FO is even comfortable with flying that leg. Perhaps if it is enough of an issue, involve the training department and get it tagged as a "Hot Item" that can be disseminated to the entire pilot group, including a review of airline procedures and even techniques that work in those situations.
A
Adler
Guest
"You have the airplane, you have the radios, I'll run the QRH for Saddie 24R".
poser765
Well-Known Member
I chuckled.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I think this is more a function of a company initial qualification program that has been lacking in teaching newbies how to deal with getting down and slowing down. This particular arrival into LA is just one place where those training deficiencies regularly show themselves.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
Meh, dudes gotta learn. They won't learn by having the captain spoon feeding them every little detail of how to fly the approach... Some FOs expect this, but I do my best to help them figure it out on their own. I'll help them more when they're new of course, but I expect more out of guys going to upgrade soon. I'm with jtrain, sorry man, but saying that he failed as a captain is outright stupid. Sometimes approaches just don't work out like you think they will... And the go around will serve as a good learning experience for everyone involved. Including the captain.
Teaching is taking place, even if it leads to a go around, where as your hand holding method is just going to teach them to be a crappy captain.
Saying that "If you go around you have failed" is a pretty terrible statement when you consider what decisions could come from that.
I personally like when being under the hood in the rear cockpit, cruising fix to fix at .90M at altitude, finally relaxing because everything is where it should be, and the guy up front asks "hey! where you going?!?!" Even though you may be doing nothing wrong and are going to the correct place anyway.
Go arounds are free. Not in a fuel burn or $$$ sense of course, but in terms of not putting yourself into a square corner that you won't be able to salvage or get yourself out of. So in that respect, they are.
Nark
Macho Superpilot
If what you got out of what I said is "go arounds are a result of a failure." I'm sorry but you completely missed the point.
There is a time and a place to teach Compass pilots, and I guess on the approach to LAX is it.
Next time I hear you guys, and I'm doing the 30 mile final over RIVER I'll ask for delay vectors.
If you don't get my sarcasm, perhaps you should refresh the page and read it again. Apparently that's how your taught.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
Ok.
PropSettin'
Low n Slow
It was more that pilots of all experience levels use it as a be-all-end-all way of changing altitude. Its not that I think its wrong because its just technique, but I do think there are much smoother, precise, more pax friendly, more professional-pilot-ish, ways of going about getting the aircraft in a position to land.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Speed modes, if they work properly, and this one does, are ideal for a lot of reasons. One that hasn't been brought up is safety; you won't stall in a speed mode with the AP and AT on, and you're in extra great shape if you don't set it below green dot.
It's also efficient, it'll descend you and climb you at the max rate possible.
I've flown aircraft where speed modes were completely unreliable, and we climbed and descended in VS all the time, but the result was that aircraft were stalled with some regularity. Of course we didn't have AT, so that's obviously a factor. Guys would either get distracted in a climb and not see the speed rolling back, or distracted in a level off and not bring the power up.
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cactusjuba
Well-Known Member
With regards to the high/hot/unstable scenario, I think everyone has valid and true points, lets just put it all together. You are at the interview for your dream job, then told your'e the CA(PNF) in the above scenario, now WWYD? (Take controls? Let them learn the hard way?) I think we'd all be singing a different tune to the interviewer.
This is a good CRM scenario. It starts with a brief of ATC procedures as a threat, and no you can't brief every scenario. You can say "they like to leave us high and turn early here, so, uh, watch out there buddy" til your face turns blue. And yet, magically a few minutes later, you'll be squirming in your seat wondering when you're gonna get dirtied up properly. Just talking about it prior should mitigate the threat in most cases. But if it doesn't, then what? Like Jtrain used, a subtle cue like "would you like xxx" or "we are still showing a little high" is a soft prompt, and usually enough get things reversed. It says I'm concerned, but I'm not trying to be controlling. Now, if that doesn't get it done, and you're approaching unfixable territory, use the more urgent and commanding "we need to drop the gear","if we don't slow now we we wont make it", "I'll ask for S-turns". That takes the guessing out of it. You do all that before you get to the point of no return. And if for whatever reason it still just doesn't work, go-around. Then, talk about it at the gate. Whether its from a pride deflating go-around or just feeling dumb because the other guy had to step in, the PF should be humbled sufficiently to learn what to do next time. Good CRM doesn't need to go from zero-to-my controls, nor from subtle hints-to-passive aggressive "fine I'll just watch you screw it up" either.
Also, if this is about new guys, here's another angle to look at. We all hope they keep us in the loop and ask for guidance on the fly. This is at the heart, a communication issue. They are likely thinking "Am I looking okay?","Should I start down now?", "FLCH or VS/FPA?", "Is it too early to put flaps(#)/gear down?", "whats fastest way down right now?", and if they would only verbalize that, everything would turn out like it should. But they likely won't because, well, we all have an ego and want the other pilot to think we are a good pilot. Because good pilots don't need help, right? That insecurity hurts CRM, and being aggressive or passive-aggressive as a CA only deepens it. Hopefully we briefed open communication and showcase an approachable vibe so they feel comfortable asking questions. And if they don't verbalizing their thoughts and screw up, and we counter that with good CRM and a constructive debrief, they will hopefully trust us enough with their insecurity to fit in and actually use us as a resource.
This is a good CRM scenario. It starts with a brief of ATC procedures as a threat, and no you can't brief every scenario. You can say "they like to leave us high and turn early here, so, uh, watch out there buddy" til your face turns blue. And yet, magically a few minutes later, you'll be squirming in your seat wondering when you're gonna get dirtied up properly. Just talking about it prior should mitigate the threat in most cases. But if it doesn't, then what? Like Jtrain used, a subtle cue like "would you like xxx" or "we are still showing a little high" is a soft prompt, and usually enough get things reversed. It says I'm concerned, but I'm not trying to be controlling. Now, if that doesn't get it done, and you're approaching unfixable territory, use the more urgent and commanding "we need to drop the gear","if we don't slow now we we wont make it", "I'll ask for S-turns". That takes the guessing out of it. You do all that before you get to the point of no return. And if for whatever reason it still just doesn't work, go-around. Then, talk about it at the gate. Whether its from a pride deflating go-around or just feeling dumb because the other guy had to step in, the PF should be humbled sufficiently to learn what to do next time. Good CRM doesn't need to go from zero-to-my controls, nor from subtle hints-to-passive aggressive "fine I'll just watch you screw it up" either.
Also, if this is about new guys, here's another angle to look at. We all hope they keep us in the loop and ask for guidance on the fly. This is at the heart, a communication issue. They are likely thinking "Am I looking okay?","Should I start down now?", "FLCH or VS/FPA?", "Is it too early to put flaps(#)/gear down?", "whats fastest way down right now?", and if they would only verbalize that, everything would turn out like it should. But they likely won't because, well, we all have an ego and want the other pilot to think we are a good pilot. Because good pilots don't need help, right? That insecurity hurts CRM, and being aggressive or passive-aggressive as a CA only deepens it. Hopefully we briefed open communication and showcase an approachable vibe so they feel comfortable asking questions. And if they don't verbalizing their thoughts and screw up, and we counter that with good CRM and a constructive debrief, they will hopefully trust us enough with their insecurity to fit in and actually use us as a resource.
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