Life at Compass

[MikeD]

So what happens if you are at a station y'all aren't usually at and it needs to be towed?

There's a ground handling checklist/QRH kept onboard those aircraft that is then given to the ground crew at an outstation to follow, regardless of whether they are familiar or not with that aircraft. Which makes sense. It may not be in the flightcrew checklist, but there is still a checklist for it, as there are things that have to be done with disconnecting nosewheel steering on some planes, tow turn limits; and if the ground crew is in the cockpit instead of a flight crew: things like brake riding and parking brake usage, whether/how emergency brakes are used if needed, and any related notes/warnings/cautions to the operation.

For some of these aircraft, towing is a complex enough operation that I can understand why it would require a checklist, as critical damage to some components can occur if certain items aren't set correctly, etc. It's indeed far more than just hooking up a tug and pushing/pulling the plane around.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

I agree, it is understandable, when you figure that things like crossbleed start are operations that are probably seldom done, and runway changes involve more than just moving to a different runway......things like changing information in nav systems, etc. So a runway change in a 172 and a runway change in an A320, while accomplishing the same end-state, one is definitely more complex than the other for those reasons. So yes, while on the face of it a checklist for items like these sounds hokey, but when you delve into the details of an unusual operation or complex change, it does make sense.

A former compass friend, now at a legacy, recently got a pilot deviation due to a runway change and flying the wrong departure. first thing he said was "I wish we had a runway change checklist like we had at compass".

 

[poser765]

So get on the QRH steering committee (or whatever), and suggest these changes!

I have offered to volunteer my time in a number of different ways...so far no one has had position for me. lol, probably says something about me.

Trust me, when one day you fly an airplane thats less electro than the 175 you'll apreciate your checklist discipline much more. These things are there for a reason, same with turning the hyd pumps on @Autothrust Blue. Don't become a reason for a new procedure or checklist line, minimum fuel anyone? Have you flown anything more than the E175? You'll see one day if not. Focus on getting out rather than things you think you can do better.

No I get it, and I have flown an airplane less automated than the 175. Admittedly not a REALLY complicated airplane, but still an aircraft where you had to configure the pneumatic panel properly for a cross-bleed start. Also, I feel like I have relatively good "check list discipline." I use the checklists, I even read them when I do them. heck, I even actually do the non precision approach review (unless it's a visual backed up with an RNAV app).

I agree, it is understandable, when you figure that things like crossbleed start are operations that are probably seldom done, and runway changes involve more than just moving to a different runway......things like changing information in nav systems, etc. So a runway change in a 172 and a runway change in an A320, while accomplishing the same end-state, one is definitely more complex than the other for those reasons. So yes, while on the face of it a checklist for items like these sounds hokey, but when you delve into the details of an unusual operation or complex change, it does make sense.

Like I said, Mike, I get it...I really do. I don't have a problem with the procedures and checks themselves, just how some of them are written. It's not that they ARE written, but HOW. I just don't like how the takeoff change check is done.

Granted, that could be my own lack of understanding and training. I was going through initial sims when the checklist was revised with that check. The instructors didn't know how to do it, so they just taught how they thought it should be done, and it hasn't gotten too much better out on the line. I've flown with several captains who insist it is done "this" way.

 

[poser765]

A former compass friend, now at a legacy, recently got a pilot deviation due to a runway change and flying the wrong departure. first thing he said was "I wish we had a runway change checklist like we had at compass".

And I would bet a bag full of 50 cent pieces that is EXACTLY why we have the check list here now.

 

[Adler]

Trust me, when one day you fly an airplane thats less electro than the 175 you'll apreciate your checklist discipline much more. These things are there for a reason, same with turning the hyd pumps on @Autothrust Blue. Don't become a reason for a new procedure or checklist line, minimum fuel anyone? Have you flown anything more than the E175? You'll see one day if not. Focus on getting out rather than things you think you can do better.

The least electro plane I was on let you use your brain. The manuals explicitly said that they "...necessitate the use of JUDGEMENT as the overriding factor." and that "taking timely action prior to checklist referral be required to prevent an abnormal situation from becoming an emergency".

But then again, in the previous life we spent a month in the classroom learning PhD level systems knowlege; there's a direct correlation between the lack of systems training and the amount of checklists.

 

[Seggy]

The least electro plane I was on let you use your brain. The manuals explicitly said that they "...necessitate the use of JUDGEMENT as the overriding factor." and that "taking timely action prior to checklist referral be required to prevent an abnormal situation from becoming an emergency".

But then again, in the previous life we spent a month in the classroom learning PhD level systems knowlege; there's a direct correlation between the lack of systems training and the amount of checklists.

Wow...so much wrong with this....to begin, you are comparing a plane designed in the late 1950s to a plane designed in 2004.

 

[Adler]

Wow...so much wrong with this....to begin, you are comparing a plane designed in the late 1950s to a plane designed in 2004.

Two crew cockpits, autothrottles, and FMS is just a fad.

 

[Nark]

Wow...so much wrong with this....to begin, you are comparing a plane designed in the late 1950s to a plane designed in 2004.

Come on dude.
You are giving him crap for knowing why a valve turns, versus the crap Airbus does. Oh ECAM action. Okay dokey... (Embraer in this case)
That attitude is exactly how AF 447 happened.

 

[Dphoenix]

Takeoff change check is a pain in the backside if CA put 24L in the box at LAX and you're now #1 for 25R. Outside of that it usually isn't too bad.

 

[spitfire5181]

Takeoff change check is a pain in the backside if CA put 24L in the box at LAX and you're now #1 for 25R. Outside of that it usually isn't too bad.

Hahaha try holding short of 16L and then getting center in SEA. admittedly tower does ask if you want to take it.

 

[JetDoc]

Takeoff change check is a pain in the backside if CA put 24L in the box at LAX and you're now #1 for 25R. Outside of that it usually isn't too bad.

That's why if there is any question I always plan 25R. Plenty of time to handle it if they give us the north side.

 

[Seggy]

Come on dude.
You are giving him crap for knowing why a valve turns, versus the crap Airbus does. Oh ECAM action. Okay dokey... (Embraer in this case)
That attitude is exactly how AF 447 happened.

Come on bro.

Yes, on the 727 you may need to know why a valve turns a certain way, but on the E-180 and other aircraft, such as the Airbus, it really doesn't matter with the newer technology. OFF and AUTO mean something.

When I transitioned to the Q400 at Colgan it was still a very much of a 'you are a molecule of fuel, work your way through the fuel system' type of program like it was on the Beech and Slaab. We even had to waste time doing circling approaches for the type ride. All this 'ball busting' knowing meaningless crap on the airplane you really didn't need to know still didn't prevent that program from killing 50 people.

In today's modern aircraft you need situational awareness, no doubt, but it is more important to know what flight law you are in or what the auto thrust is doing more so than the configuration of the recirculation fans or the way a valve is turning. I am not sure if @Adler and you realize that.

 

[Adler]

Come on bro.

Yes, on the 727 you may need to know why a valve turns a certain way, but on the E-180 and other aircraft, such as the Airbus, it really doesn't matter with the newer technology. OFF and AUTO mean something.

When I transitioned to the Q400 at Colgan it was still a very much of a 'you are a molecule of fuel, work your way through the fuel system' type of program like it was on the Beech and Slaab. We even had to waste time doing circling approaches for the type ride. All this 'ball busting' knowing meaningless crap on the airplane you really didn't need to know still didn't prevent that program from killing 50 people.

In today's modern aircraft you need situational awareness, no doubt, but it is more important to know what flight law you are in or what the auto thrust is doing more so than the configuration of the recirculation fans or the way a valve is turning. I am not sure if @Adler and you realize that.

More like knowing what hydraulic system powers what, so that when you're getting tugged in, it takes zero grey matter to remember to turn on the pumps and turn off the nosewheel steering.

For the record I'm arguing because I disagree, but in practice I do what the man tells me to do. Although the acronyms where pretty fun, you could study all day and remember which light in what pattern means this kind of electrical fault:

...or you could just remember, "Easy [Synonym for Cat]• Spreads Venereal Disease"

 

[jtrain609]

Takeoff change check is a pain in the backside if CA put 24L in the box at LAX and you're now #1 for 25R. Outside of that it usually isn't too bad.

Hahaha try holding short of 16L and then getting center in SEA. admittedly tower does ask if you want to take it.

That's why if there is any question I always plan 25R. Plenty of time to handle it if they give us the north side.

How about the captain asks to pull over and gives the FO a minute to do the checklist properly without being rushed?

 

[poser765]

How about the captain asks to pull over and gives the FO a minute to do the checklist properly without being rushed?

That would be ideal...unfortunately we have one or two captains don't have the experience enough to do that...or FOs with experience enough to ask the captain to do that.

 

[jtrain609]

That would be ideal...unfortunately we have one or two captains don't have the experience enough to do that...or FOs with experience enough to ask the captain to do that.

Yeah, that's the problem, not the change checklist.

 

[poser765]

And speaking of inexperienced captains...I just got awarded a May 18th upgrade class date. So, flica finally shows my award for August (which if I read the vacancy right just means I'll be bidding CA in August, right?), but my schedule for may doesn't show any training...right now it's still he months schedule as was awarded in PBS. Will that change at some point or do I need to bring this to someone's attention?

 

[cactusjuba]

LAX RWY 25R CHANGE PROCEDURE​

Condition: FMS loaded for 24L, and on intial contact with ground at C9/C8/C7/BOX you are assigned 25R:

1. Take 5 seconds to switch RWY in FMS,
2. Take 5 more seconds to load and display TO data for 25R (Assuming FO sent for both, and noted RWY differences before hand).
3. Read "XXXX no change.. set/set" a few times.

-END OF PROCEDURE-
​

*NOTE: Under normal conditions this procedure should take about 500ft to accomplish, or about 30 seconds. If more work is necessary, the CA should taxi slower. If still not ready after switching over to tower, you are #1 for takeoff AND told to taxi full length or are expecting a F intersection departure, inform ATC you'll need a minute at the end or need to pull over.

 

[jtrain609]

LAX RWY 25R CHANGE PROCEDURE​

Condition: FMS loaded for 24L, and on intial contact with ground at C9/C8/C7/BOX you are assigned 25R:

1. Take 5 seconds to switch RWY in FMS,
2. Take 5 more seconds to load and display TO data for 25R (Assuming FO sent for both, and noted RWY differences before hand).
3. Read "XXXX no change.. set/set" a few times.

-END OF PROCEDURE-
​

*NOTE: Under normal conditions this procedure should take about 500ft to accomplish, or about 30 seconds. If more work is necessary, the CA should taxi slower. If still not ready after switching over to tower, you are #1 for takeoff AND told to taxi full length or are expecting a F intersection departure, inform ATC you'll need a minute at the end or need to pull over.

My job as a captain while taxing the plane is to make my FO's job easy, and that means never putting critical programming entirely on their shoulders. If I'm taxing, I'm not paying attention to them reprogramming the box, and it's unfair to my FO's to force them to shoulder the entire responsibility of programming.

Taking 30 seconds to stop the plane and make sure both guys are paying attention to what's been programmed is the safest thing we can do. Those extra 30 seconds do us nothing in the grand scheme of the day. I've caught multiple programming errors that were made when I stopped the plane so we can both pay attention to what's being done.

 

[PropSettin']

That's why if there is any question I always plan 25R. Plenty of time to handle it if they give us the north side.

This. Especially outta the box. Departure brief...
"two engine taxi to 24L and..."
"Uhhh, wanna plan on 25R and then just switch it if we need to on the taxi?"
"Sure, you're doing the T/O change check so its up to you"
Ground: "CP 5XXX taxi 25R via..."

How about the captain asks to pull over and gives the FO a minute to do the checklist properly without being rushed?

This x 10.