Late night flight with a strange request...
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Bert
New Member
Given the religious and political climate today, I would hope each airline would have a stated policy to deal with such situations.
That said...on a philosophical level, I believe they should be allowed to pray. However, that could always be (and perhaps should be) trumped by safety-of-flight issues. How a captain deals with this is almost as important as what his or her final decision is.
I think any decision in this matter should be framed within safety-of-flight issues...if nothing else to stay out of religious politics and hopefully out of court. If you can't keep luggage (or other things) in the aisles...you shouldn't be allowed to throw a big rug on the ground and lay on it. It's simply not safe for the flight crew or the other passengers.
Any issue beyond that's gotta go to the lawyers and bosses...
That said...on a philosophical level, I believe they should be allowed to pray. However, that could always be (and perhaps should be) trumped by safety-of-flight issues. How a captain deals with this is almost as important as what his or her final decision is.
I think any decision in this matter should be framed within safety-of-flight issues...if nothing else to stay out of religious politics and hopefully out of court. If you can't keep luggage (or other things) in the aisles...you shouldn't be allowed to throw a big rug on the ground and lay on it. It's simply not safe for the flight crew or the other passengers.
Any issue beyond that's gotta go to the lawyers and bosses...
flyguy
Well-Known Member
Many of you have stated how it would cause an uproar of other passengers. I don't think this would be the case because they are wanting to be discrete, and pray at the rear of the plane, probably out of site of most passengers.
The problem I see is not with the posibility of air rage, but with with the fact that if they were on the floor it would interfere with the crew and furthermore, could be considered a violation of FAR 91.107 which states that each occupant of the aircraft must be in an approved seat, and that the floor of the aircraft may not be used as a seat unless the occupants boarded the aircraft for purposes of sport parachuting.
I would expalin that their request would be unsafe and would interfere with the crew's duties. I would allow them to discretely pray in their seats, and appologise for any inconvience.
The problem I see is not with the posibility of air rage, but with with the fact that if they were on the floor it would interfere with the crew and furthermore, could be considered a violation of FAR 91.107 which states that each occupant of the aircraft must be in an approved seat, and that the floor of the aircraft may not be used as a seat unless the occupants boarded the aircraft for purposes of sport parachuting.
I would expalin that their request would be unsafe and would interfere with the crew's duties. I would allow them to discretely pray in their seats, and appologise for any inconvience.
[ QUOTE ]
Given the religious and political climate today, I would hope each airline would have a stated policy to deal with such situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooh! Very good, when in doubt, refer to the FOM (Flight Operations Manual)
I'll have to check mine when I get home to see if there is any guidance on it.
Given the religious and political climate today, I would hope each airline would have a stated policy to deal with such situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooh! Very good, when in doubt, refer to the FOM (Flight Operations Manual)
I'll have to check mine when I get home to see if there is any guidance on it.
Prospective_Pilot
New Member
Flyguy put it Exactly how I'd go about handling a situation like that...... keeping it simple and trying to avoid causing an argument and dispute between the airline and the customer by giving logical reasons as to why it would not be safe for him/her to conduct their relgious means on the floor in the back of the a/c...
I'm sure while most would probably accept the "no" there would be others who would take offence and go straight ahead, ignore you, and do it anyway.....what would you do then??? Let them go about their means??? Talk to them again??? Warn them???
I'm sure while most would probably accept the "no" there would be others who would take offence and go straight ahead, ignore you, and do it anyway.....what would you do then??? Let them go about their means??? Talk to them again??? Warn them???
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Have we left the ground yet? If we haven't, then I would go back and talk to them. I'd tell them, look, guys, I respect your religious beliefs, and believe that you have every right to them. But there are some people on this plane, who, given the current state of tensions, may not be understanding. I am going to ask you to please refrain from doing this on the plane in order to put everyone at ease.
Most people are reasonable. They may not be happy about it, but most people will probably go along with it.
Most people are reasonable. They may not be happy about it, but most people will probably go along with it.
TheWife
New Member
I don't think that the "current state of tensions" should be brought up at all, then you are making it an issue when it might not have been. Planes can be scary. If you are religious you really might need to pray for the sake of feeling peaceful. If I needed to I could do it in my seat. But they do it differently. If it was me, I'd want to know if there was enough room on the floor that they could be there, and still have an FA be able to walk around them and not be blocking the lav to the other passengers. Could they do it one at a time to take up less space? How long will they need? If it's 2 minutes, that's probably not a big deal. If it's 20, that is a big deal. I don't think that other passengers feelings or concerns should really be a factor. Some people are so ridiculous that they don't even want to be on a flight with muslims. Some people don't want to be on a flight with kids. Some people don't want to sit next to an old chatty person. Unless you can afford a private jet, you as a passenger, have an obligation to just be a civil and decent person and not cause any problems. The last plane I was on, I had to spend some time on the floor of the lav to change a diaper. It's not easy, and I felt very unstable. I'd imagine it's worse in the more open area, so I would warn them that they might get hurt if they are on the floor while there is turbulance. But I certainly would not tell them that they can't because it would make others uncomfortable. That does bring up the question though, if the pilot did say it was ok, and they did get hurt, with or without being warned, could they hold the pilot or airline responsible, as it is "the pilots duty to ensure safety."??
xdashdriver
Well-Known Member
I had many friends at school that were Muslim and had the whole prayer five times a day thing going on. Sometimes class time would interfere with some of the prayer times during the day. I asked them about what happened if they couldn't pray right on time, and they said that the Koran says that they should try to do it at the specified time, but if not possible then as soon afterwards as possible. In other words, Allah does provide some leniency in his schedule.
If it can be satisfactorily shown (which I believe in most cases it can be) that having them congregate (and if there are several on the flight, then if you let one do it, they're all gonna have to do it) at the back of the aircraft will most probably either interfere with crewmember duties or disrupt normal passenger activity. If the flight has encountered turbulence already and the Captain can reasonably expect to encounter more then it increases the chances of injury if turbulence is encountered while they are praying. I would NOT bring up any political references to the "current times". That can only be inflammatory and make a sensitive situation worse. The key to the whole thing is to be sensitive, sympathetic, and smile but gently tell them that it is not going to possible on today's flight. That way they are not justified by calling you names or getting upset.
Ray
If it can be satisfactorily shown (which I believe in most cases it can be) that having them congregate (and if there are several on the flight, then if you let one do it, they're all gonna have to do it) at the back of the aircraft will most probably either interfere with crewmember duties or disrupt normal passenger activity. If the flight has encountered turbulence already and the Captain can reasonably expect to encounter more then it increases the chances of injury if turbulence is encountered while they are praying. I would NOT bring up any political references to the "current times". That can only be inflammatory and make a sensitive situation worse. The key to the whole thing is to be sensitive, sympathetic, and smile but gently tell them that it is not going to possible on today's flight. That way they are not justified by calling you names or getting upset.
Ray
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
I would tell the FA that I sympothize with their want to pray, but due to safety factors, it would not be permissible. They could be a hinderance incase of an inflight emergency, a hinderance to the FA's doing their duties and, and they could possibly get injured if any unexpected turbulence were to arrise.
You're the captain. You're resposible for the plane, the crew and everything onboard. If something were to happen, it's your a$$!
You're the captain. You're resposible for the plane, the crew and everything onboard. If something were to happen, it's your a$$!
naunga
New Member
I would say no. I wouldn't bring up any issues other than safety and "FAA Regs".
My reasoning would be this:
1. Regardless of what I know or don't know about Isalm I would find it hard to believe that every Muslim everywhere is able to pray at the appropriate time. I would be thinking about the guy stuck in traffic, the guy in the elevator that's stopping at all 30 floors on the way down, etc. It would stand to reason that there would be some flexibility in that requirement.
2. Americans being the paranoid sheep that they are I would fear for their safety. If they were to stand up, take their bags down and walk to the back of the plane. I'd worry that some cowboy would jump them and start pounding the crap out of the "hijackers". Then I've got a situation to deal with.
3. You might get someone who runs off the plane and tells the first cop that "a bunch of them Muslims were acting really weird on the plane." Then all of the sudden a couple of guys who were just trying to pry are sitting in some dark room being held under the Patriot Act. Again not good for them.
4. The worst case scenario is that they truly are hijackers and this is a tatic to mobilize on the plane. So no. The only place they're going is the lav and they're not taking anything with them.
If after the FA gives them the bad news they make a scene. I would have her refer them to the agent at the gate when we arrive and then the "Fasten Seat Belt Sign" goes on.
In the back of my mind, however, I would be thinking that this might be a ploy to attempt to take control of the plane. Given that I would, under no circumstances leave the cockpit.
Those are my thoughts...hey Doug what would you do?
Naunga
My reasoning would be this:
1. Regardless of what I know or don't know about Isalm I would find it hard to believe that every Muslim everywhere is able to pray at the appropriate time. I would be thinking about the guy stuck in traffic, the guy in the elevator that's stopping at all 30 floors on the way down, etc. It would stand to reason that there would be some flexibility in that requirement.
2. Americans being the paranoid sheep that they are I would fear for their safety. If they were to stand up, take their bags down and walk to the back of the plane. I'd worry that some cowboy would jump them and start pounding the crap out of the "hijackers". Then I've got a situation to deal with.
3. You might get someone who runs off the plane and tells the first cop that "a bunch of them Muslims were acting really weird on the plane." Then all of the sudden a couple of guys who were just trying to pry are sitting in some dark room being held under the Patriot Act. Again not good for them.
4. The worst case scenario is that they truly are hijackers and this is a tatic to mobilize on the plane. So no. The only place they're going is the lav and they're not taking anything with them.
If after the FA gives them the bad news they make a scene. I would have her refer them to the agent at the gate when we arrive and then the "Fasten Seat Belt Sign" goes on.
In the back of my mind, however, I would be thinking that this might be a ploy to attempt to take control of the plane. Given that I would, under no circumstances leave the cockpit.
Those are my thoughts...hey Doug what would you do?
Naunga
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
I'd simply say no and not even give a reason beyond "I said so."
(For you guys I'll explain): Passengers should be in their seats with their belts fastened - regardless of what the FARs say - and to have people on their knees (not belted in), blocking an ailse is an unsafe condition. I could give one sh*t about needing to pray, or if they were back there doing step aerobics I'm not opening myself, or the company, up to liability by allowing them to crawl around on the floor.
Say it was a mother wanting to let her child crawl around for "excercise" or a couple of teenagers who just wanted to hang out back there would you let those folks do those things?
To hell with "current affairs" it's a safety of flight issue. People should be in their seats, getting leg cramps and bitching about the peanuts - not crawling around on the floor of the airplane.
(For you guys I'll explain): Passengers should be in their seats with their belts fastened - regardless of what the FARs say - and to have people on their knees (not belted in), blocking an ailse is an unsafe condition. I could give one sh*t about needing to pray, or if they were back there doing step aerobics I'm not opening myself, or the company, up to liability by allowing them to crawl around on the floor.
Say it was a mother wanting to let her child crawl around for "excercise" or a couple of teenagers who just wanted to hang out back there would you let those folks do those things?
To hell with "current affairs" it's a safety of flight issue. People should be in their seats, getting leg cramps and bitching about the peanuts - not crawling around on the floor of the airplane.
well, i'm kinda wondering what the harm is? and if there's any liability to the company if they're in prayer and some unknown turbulence comes up and they go flying...
when your on a long flight, it's natural to want to get up, stretch and move around some - i wouldn't have a problem if kids are walking around, teenie boppers hanging out in back or people praying as long as they don't block up the hallway and block the F/A route... but i'm also not sure what the actual regulations are on how long/often people can get up/stay up out of their seats and what happens with the liability it causes...
when your on a long flight, it's natural to want to get up, stretch and move around some - i wouldn't have a problem if kids are walking around, teenie boppers hanging out in back or people praying as long as they don't block up the hallway and block the F/A route... but i'm also not sure what the actual regulations are on how long/often people can get up/stay up out of their seats and what happens with the liability it causes...
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
I'd have to say "no" for liability reasons.
Which pretty much echo's this: [ QUOTE ]
Passengers should be in their seats with their belts fastened - regardless of what the FARs say - and to have people on their knees (not belted in), blocking an ailse is an unsafe condition. I could give one sh*t about needing to pray, or if they were back there doing step aerobics I'm not opening myself, or the company, up to liability by allowing them to crawl around on the floor.
[/ QUOTE ]
If an individual is granted express permission by the Captain of an aircraft to be out of their seat, unstrapped, for any length of time - and something occurs in which that individual (or anyone else) is injured - it is almost inevitible in todays litigious society, that that (those) individual(s) would come after my employer.
People can pray from their seats just as well as they can from their knees.
Which pretty much echo's this: [ QUOTE ]
Passengers should be in their seats with their belts fastened - regardless of what the FARs say - and to have people on their knees (not belted in), blocking an ailse is an unsafe condition. I could give one sh*t about needing to pray, or if they were back there doing step aerobics I'm not opening myself, or the company, up to liability by allowing them to crawl around on the floor.
[/ QUOTE ]
If an individual is granted express permission by the Captain of an aircraft to be out of their seat, unstrapped, for any length of time - and something occurs in which that individual (or anyone else) is injured - it is almost inevitible in todays litigious society, that that (those) individual(s) would come after my employer.
People can pray from their seats just as well as they can from their knees.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd simply say no and not even give a reason beyond "I said so."
[/ QUOTE ]
Disagree, 602. I'd do it more diplomatically if I were you...........
Tell them that, while they're onboard the plane, for all intents and purposes, Allah is sitting in the left cockpit seat as far as they're concerned............
I'd simply say no and not even give a reason beyond "I said so."
[/ QUOTE ]
Disagree, 602. I'd do it more diplomatically if I were you...........
Tell them that, while they're onboard the plane, for all intents and purposes, Allah is sitting in the left cockpit seat as far as they're concerned............
CLR4ILS
Well-Known Member
Hey Doug,
I know this is off the subject but have you considered a forum strictly about aviation interview questions? All of us aspiring pilots could make an educated guess and you could supply the real answer later down the road (if we were incorrect). The airlines names could be left out to keep your liability low....ILS
I know this is off the subject but have you considered a forum strictly about aviation interview questions? All of us aspiring pilots could make an educated guess and you could supply the real answer later down the road (if we were incorrect). The airlines names could be left out to keep your liability low....ILS
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