Is it just a little boy's dream or a real job?

I know a lot of career pilots and Ive watched them get furloughed and then start over. This has been the way aviation has been for a long time its not just the current market.

I didn't see zap or anyone else dispute this. What they are trying to get across is taking a $40,000+ pay cut may seem easy now but wait until your income, family, house, car, and everything else depend on the $40k+. The problem with aviation is you aren't truly rewarded for your experience. Every time you move on to something "better" regional -> national-> major you have to initially take a pay cut. Also if you get furloughed your experience means nothing. If no major is hiring you have to go back to a $20k regional job. Not because you are "too stupid" but because there is nothing else out there. We should settled for "there are plenty of jobs abroad". This my country, our country, we should provide for our citizens not short them so much that they need to leave. I think nothing speaks to the short comings of our once great nation then people being forced to the likes of the UAE or India or China to make a decent living. Sad times.

Or you could just fly freight where every day is ice cream and cotton candy.;)
 
If you absolutly must stay in the US then your gonna have to lump it and start over like everyone else when you get layed off and make 50-60k a year.

Buddy, i've been laid off 3 times in 10 years. If you think it's that easy to find a $50,000/yr flying job while wearing the scarlet "F" from a major, you're living in a dream world.

You're not only wrong. You're delusional.
 
There are two things that destroy "the dream" for most of us. They are things that those in other career fields don't exactly have to worry about: Seniority and regional airline expansion.

This career would be outstanding if you knew that a furough wasn't a death sentence in annual income. If we could somehow bring regional payscales to an acceptable level, things might not be so bad. I'd imagine I could go from $120,000 a year income to $50-60,000 a year, if the prospect was there to increase to $80,000 after a year or two. But going from that $120,000 a year to $20,000 a year, only to expect $40,000 a year and poor work rules after 5 years is insulting to us as professionals.

I'm hanging on, because I'm optimistic.
 
Buddy, i've been laid off 3 times in 10 years. If you think it's that easy to find a $50,000/yr flying job while wearing the scarlet "F" from a major, you're living in a dream world.

You're not only wrong. You're delusional.

Who said anything about it being easy? good things in life are never easy
 
I agree with Zap. You can't always have everything, sometimes you have to decide what's more important. To him it's family. Maybe there are some people who can keep their family happy and fed and still have all their dreams and if so great for them. But I think it's really shallow and conceited of people to judge them, especially when they've never faced having to make a decision like that. Maybe it's easy for a young single guy to just skip a couple meals and wear their old clothes until they are worn out, but I hope you never wanna have children or marry a wealthy woman because you try explaining to a crying, hungry baby that sacrifices have to be made for daddy to live his dream... What if your dream is family as well as aviation and you are faced with not being able to have both? Which do you sacrifice for the other?
 
Who said anything about it being easy? good things in life are never easy

Said the 250 hour guy to the pilot who was laid off three times, who slept in his car while time-building, and who has personally lived the ups and downs of the industry for years.

:banghead:
 
And in my opinion Zap has been successful in aviation. Maybe he's not doing exactly what he thought he would be or wanted to be doing but he's made it through several furloughs and still flies for a living today. If that's not perserverence then some of you don't just have dreams, you can't seperate dreams from reality.
 
See - not everyone is in the same boat:

I agree with Zap. You can't always have everything, sometimes you have to decide what's more important. To him it's family. Maybe there are some people who can keep their family happy and fed and still have all their dreams and if so great for them. But I think it's really shallow and conceited of people to judge them, especially when they've never faced having to make a decision like that. Maybe it's easy for a young single guy to just skip a couple meals and wear their old clothes until they are worn out, but I hope you never wanna have children or marry a wealthy woman because you try explaining to a crying, hungry baby that sacrifices have to be made for daddy to live his dream... What if your dream is family as well as aviation and you are faced with not being able to have both? Which do you sacrifice for the other?

I never played with stuff I could not afford to play with. Its the peoples fault if they engage in relationships that force them to give up their dreams. I's also their fault if they value a "career" that can be ended by a simple doctors visit higher than people and family. No matter what you comply with - there is simply almost never a way not to regret it later. I have made sacrifices in my live before joining the Commercial Pilot ranks - outside of Aviation, but, hell, thats why the house is paid off and the cars don't stink. Whatever you do takes sacrifices - some things, like our current aviation market seem to demand a bit more.

I think 3enginejock is not aware that he is incredibly lucky to be where he is, at the current stage of the game. I do not know his age, nor his real life experience with having relationships nor am I out to judge anyone.
All I am saying is that discouraging people in this industry will work only with the worst characters. He is full of excitement, and even though many of us may not understand why a 250 hour kiddo has a chance and we are looking at 4000+ hour people out of a job I am happy for him. I can yet understand him for feeling attacked by being presented like a bum, for "living his dream".

I take the old skool people in here very serious, and I do value their advise and insight - but... and there is always a but... there is just no way you can convince someone that has chosen this "profession" as his, that his or her efforts are senseless. This industry is probably one of the most disrespectful, ungrateful and insulting ones I have ever seen - yet, if I take off and make my money with flying... I mean - why do you fly? If I told a brain doctor that I was reducing his fee for doing brainsurgery from $80.000 a day to $1000.00 a day (even though he has healed and saved multiple patients), would he remain in this profession? Would he go out and accept employment as an anesthesist? I think from the day you told him that he was being exchanged for a cheaper doctor, he would artfully create drooling and lalling patients. If I knew I was hired on a CL601 for less than 10% of what I should make, would I still remember how to fly?

If people are in this for the money, or the prestige of being a pilot, I would encourage them to open their eyes, cleaning personell makes more money in my town than a 1'st year FO at MESA. No - they don't make $41/ hour, but their take home paycheck is bigger, and they are home.

Look - I believe that this trend of Chinese wage pilot employment (they have surpassed us with this too!) could be reverted by establishing a national association that shuns people and operators selling out for cheap money. I never hear much in the press about pilot wages - and such an organization could yield tremendous awareness on the side of the customer that is yet still believing that pilots make good money while coming in late for work. If some of the training contracts and employment contracts where PUBLIC knowledge people would finally have a chance to tell the airlines and operators that they are downright scared.

If you want to change the market and the industry, you will have to move closer to your fellow pilot and talk frankly. You will have to actively seek out operators like Air Tahoma (claimed to be unsafe) or 3enginejocks, or any others, and if you have something to say for their safety record or employment practices- for the sake of the lord, go SAY IT. You will have to actively position yourself against "academy style pilot slavery".
Don't say it here, where less of 1% of the population looks - say it on your local TV station, say it in the newspaper, go seek PUBLICITY! Do whatever it takes to get your fellow aviator on your side - and stand up and fight. We are such a small community of people. I don't wonder why we cant just skip work for one darn day. Would the airlines fire everyone and close up? Or is the fact that this spiral never ends only cause by the fact that we are allowing more and more scumbags into our business? When are we taking pride in what we do again? Where does it stop?

Whatever you do - if you don't stand up to it - don't expect anything to change. Rant mode: OFF
 
I'm happy for him too. I HOPE everything works out for him. Oliver fits into the "250 hour kid" catergory himself (although not really a kid). I HOPE everything works for him too and he finds a good job and loves flying for a livingand then is able to come home to a loving family knowing all the bills are paid and the baby fed. That's the reality of my life too. I'm just saying it's easy for people to be hard on those who have set the dream aside or altered the dream so that it is a nice compromise that allows them to see other dreams come true too, when they have yet to be faced with these decisions. Is it being negative and trying to kill their dreams, no, I don't think so. It's educating them so they aren't surprised, shocked and/or disappointed with what they find when they get there. Oliver and I were super excited when we found out we were pregnant. I dreamed of what we would have, a girl or boy? What it would be like to hold our baby for the first time...all of the wonderful things that parenthood brings. But I also educated myself on the different tests I would need during my pregnancy, the proper diet to have while I'm pregnant and the typcial discomforts of pregnancy vs. those that could signal trouble. Now the same with aviation. I could have ignored that but I think being educated on it has made my pregnancy more enjoyable actually because I don't worry when my stomach is cramping because I've read up on it and consulted my ob and I know what the cause is. If I only knew all the good things I may have been disappointed by how uncomfortable and sometimes not enjoyable pregnancy can be. To me, it's exactly the same with aviation. These guys aren't trying to discourage. People come here wanting to know and they just tell the truth. I have people call the flight school all the time asking questions about how much pilots make and what the lifestyle is like. I tell most of them to research. It's important to know before going in how hard it can be so that you can prepare emotionally and financially.
 
Add this book to your library: Babywise

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5243045

It saved our lives during those challenging first 3 months. As a result of following some of the advice in that book we had a happy baby who slept through the night at 9 weeks, never woke up crying, and now takes a 3 hour nap during the day and sleeps 7pm to 7am. Great book. Two thumbs up!
 
I think maybe I give off the wrong vibe when I post. Im not trying to prove anyone wrong or piss anyone off.

I may be a "250 hour kid" but Ive wanted to be a pilot since I was a kid, its all ive ever wanted to do. Ive grown up watching my dad, my uncle, my grandfather and my godfather along with a lot of their friends fly all over the world. Ive also watched them lose their jobs and have to move in with family members because they are broke. If you think that simply because I only have 250 hours I do not know whats its like your wrong. Perhaps ive not been the one to get laid off but ive been the one affected several times.

The first piece of advice that was given to me before I became a pilot was this. Dont become a pilot if your not willing to make sacrafices. You dont think I know how extremely lucky I am to be able to find a job right out of school? But even with this job living in Miami on 20k a year will not be easy, but I will find a way to do it for as long as it takes. And who knows maybe ill get furloughed quickly, but im going into it understanding that possibility.

I understand some people have families, and of course that should be your priority. However the aviation industry has been up and down like this for a long time, you should have known what you were getting into before you did it. I would never marry anyone at this point in my life unless they knew what my career was and was OK with it, that is because at this point in my life this is my priority. Maybe one day it will change but for right now this is my priority.

I dont mean to sound like I know everything but I was raised in an aviation family. Ive moved all over the world because my dad had to find differant jobs, yet he and my mother managed to raise a family and it worked out ok. My Uncle has been furloughed 4 times in his career, and has also moved all over the world working differant jobs. Yet he managed to raise a family with his wife and 4 kids. The key is plan it out before you start a family IMO, if you just go and get married to the first women you meet and dont explain to her what your career entails to make sure she is ok with it then that is your mistake.

Do not become a pilot if your not willing to make sacrafices, that is the most important thing to remember and its the first thing I will tell any student pilot.
 
I think maybe I give off the wrong vibe when I post. Im not trying to prove anyone wrong or piss anyone off.

I may be a "250 hour kid" but Ive wanted to be a pilot since I was a kid, its all ive ever wanted to do. Ive grown up watching my dad, my uncle, my grandfather and my godfather along with a lot of their friends fly all over the world. Ive also watched them lose their jobs and have to move in with family members because they are broke. If you think that simply because I only have 250 hours I do not know whats its like your wrong. Perhaps ive not been the one to get laid off but ive been the one affected several times.

The first piece of advice that was given to me before I became a pilot was this. Dont become a pilot if your not willing to make sacrafices. You dont think I know how extremely lucky I am to be able to find a job right out of school? But even with this job living in Miami on 20k a year will not be easy, but I will find a way to do it for as long as it takes. And who knows maybe ill get furloughed quickly, but im going into it understanding that possibility.

I understand some people have families, and of course that should be your priority. However the aviation industry has been up and down like this for a long time, you should have known what you were getting into before you did it. I would never marry anyone at this point in my life unless they knew what my career was and was OK with it, that is because at this point in my life this is my priority. Maybe one day it will change but for right now this is my priority.

I dont mean to sound like I know everything but I was raised in an aviation family. Ive moved all over the world because my dad had to find differant jobs, yet he and my mother managed to raise a family and it worked out ok. My Uncle has been furloughed 4 times in his career, and has also moved all over the world working differant jobs. Yet he managed to raise a family with his wife and 4 kids. The key is plan it out before you start a family IMO, if you just go and get married to the first women you meet and dont explain to her what your career entails to make sure she is ok with it then that is your mistake.

Do not become a pilot if your not willing to make sacrafices, that is the most important thing to remember and its the first thing I will tell any student pilot.

I'm on your side, Brother. It can be done, and one can be happy. However, it's very cool to "whine" these days.

Keep your head up, stay motivated, and don't let them get you down. It's still extremely possible to "live the dream" on a daily basis.
 
And maybe I come off wrong too. It's not that I don't think it's possible either. I think it is, and I hope it is because that's the road my family and I are moving down too. I just think people are acting like these people who haven't had those great experiences are trying to take people out of their childhood dreams and I don't. I think their realistic perspective on it is just as important as those super success stories where everything worked out fine and they've never been furloughed. Like I said, I have people call all the time asking about the lifestyle and change their mind the second they hear hpw much it costs and I can't honestly tell them they will start off making 100K a year. That's part of why I think the negative is just as valuable.
 
I'm just starting my CPL and paying through the a$$ to do it. I have friends only 3 years older than me who are already earning $100k+ australian straight out of uni. I won't even get close to that for many years. Whenever they gloat to me about how they can afford all of their fancy stuff I just say "do you enjoy what you do?". Many of them don't, they are stuck driving a desk 9-5 dealing with managers who they cant stand. I love what I do, i would give anything to fly, and pretty much already am.

I am lucky enough that I will have a regional job as soon as I finish training with a look into a major job 2 years after that. Although I can't say for certain, I'm pretty sure even if that wasn't the case, I'd still be flying and giving everything to try and get to the airlines.
 
I am lucky enough that I will have a regional job as soon as I finish training with a look into a major job 2 years after that. Although I can't say for certain, I'm pretty sure even if that wasn't the case, I'd still be flying and giving everything to try and get to the airlines.[/quote]

What kind of set up do you have that gurantees you this path?
 
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