Holocene
Well-Known Member
Hell, I did them on my private checkride.
Is a roll that big of a deal?
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Hell, I did them on my private checkride.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Do basically you came here to ask "I've rolled a bunch of airplanes, am I ####ed?"
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
It should have been 45 degree on your checkride.
Goonie
Never say die
yep
The NTSB never really came to a conclusion except the fact that that it was a inflight break-up.
Holocene
Well-Known Member
No sir.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Holocene -
If there is this much "mystique" about performing aerobatic maneuvers, then you seriously need to spend the money to go do some aerobatics.
The fact that you're here trying to lawyer your way into convincing yourself and others that it's an okay practice to do this (aerobatic flight by an untrained pilot in a non-aerobatic aircraft)...well, that's evidence enough that you need to go do it.
Yes, if done properly, normal non-aerobatic aircraft can perform some gentle aerobatic maneuvers like a barrel roll. Lots of skilled pilots have done in it all different types of aircraft (like airliners!).
The guys who get themselves into trouble are the ones who see aerobatic flight as such a huge thrill and taboo. They're the pilots who will take un-necessary risks, perform maneuvers incorrectly, and not only break the law, but also do damage to property and possibly bodily harm to themselves.
You may be able to find a loophole in the CFR that you think "allows" you to do something that the chorus of pilots here are echoing about being illegal, sure. The problem is that there is always that "judgment" and "flight discipline" catch-all to the FAA. You can do something that is not expressly illegal in the CFR, yet still have certificate action taken against you because of endangerment -- real or perceived.
Go get a few hours in an aerobatic airplane and get it out of your system. It will be completely worth it, trust me. Eventually you'll realize that aerobatic flight is no big deal when performed correctly. Getting that urge out of your system will keep you from killing yourself and perhaps someone else someday by doing something dumb.
If there is this much "mystique" about performing aerobatic maneuvers, then you seriously need to spend the money to go do some aerobatics.
The fact that you're here trying to lawyer your way into convincing yourself and others that it's an okay practice to do this (aerobatic flight by an untrained pilot in a non-aerobatic aircraft)...well, that's evidence enough that you need to go do it.
Yes, if done properly, normal non-aerobatic aircraft can perform some gentle aerobatic maneuvers like a barrel roll. Lots of skilled pilots have done in it all different types of aircraft (like airliners!).
The guys who get themselves into trouble are the ones who see aerobatic flight as such a huge thrill and taboo. They're the pilots who will take un-necessary risks, perform maneuvers incorrectly, and not only break the law, but also do damage to property and possibly bodily harm to themselves.
You may be able to find a loophole in the CFR that you think "allows" you to do something that the chorus of pilots here are echoing about being illegal, sure. The problem is that there is always that "judgment" and "flight discipline" catch-all to the FAA. You can do something that is not expressly illegal in the CFR, yet still have certificate action taken against you because of endangerment -- real or perceived.
Go get a few hours in an aerobatic airplane and get it out of your system. It will be completely worth it, trust me. Eventually you'll realize that aerobatic flight is no big deal when performed correctly. Getting that urge out of your system will keep you from killing yourself and perhaps someone else someday by doing something dumb.
Holocene
Well-Known Member
okay, I just got out my old PTS, and it is indeed 45-degrees.
Funny thing is, I practiced them with my instructor at 60-degrees, so that's basically what I did during the checkride.
ha, could have failed.
teetee
New Member
Are all Cessna's rated to be able to bank at 60? When I was talking to my husband about it, he said he thought that planes in flight clubs weren't rated for things that were considered Aerobatic. Or is it that the FARS doesn't allow it without the parachutes so flight clubs don't provide that?
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
G force required for a 60-degree bank level turn is 2G. Yes, every standard category GA aircraft is going to be able to handle 2G.
Holocene
Well-Known Member
Understood. Thanks.
Totally :yeahthat:
I did a couple hours aerobatics in a decathalon up near MKE many years ago. If it's something that you want to do, GO DO IT! In a properly certified airplane with a properly certified and experienced instructor. You'll probably have a blast, and your chances of killing someone [yourself or others] will be greatly diminished. Go do it! Have fun, enjoy yourself. Maybe you'll like it so much you'll want to get into the airshow circuit! But for goodness sakes don't do it in some club Archer all willy-nilly......
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
As far as I know all cessnas can do 60.
91.303 is where the FARs define aerobatic flight as "an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircrafts attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight."
More than a 30 degree bank is normally considered aerobatic and so 60 degree turns must be practiced more than 1500 feet agl and outside any airspace designated for an airport.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
What is the reference for that?
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
And so the point of this discussion is.......?
You have already admitted to rolling an airplane, belonging to someone else.
teetee
New Member
Good to know. Thanks! The 60 degree banks are still illegal though cause of not having a parachute right or how does the FARs apply to it? I honestly don't know tons, just what I have learned from listening. I also don't enjoy doing banks over 35-40-degrees...creeps me and my stomach out! :insane: My father in law was going to try a 90 degree but didn't want to clean puke from the windows and floor of his plane.
Holocene
Well-Known Member
Exceeding 60-degrees with passenegers requires parachutes in the airplane.
You can do 60-degrees all day long, with a plane full of people, and there is nothing illegal about it.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Its what has been interpreted as "abnormal attitude not necessary for normal flight"
I'll have to dig to find an LOI, but that has been what I have been taught, and teach others.
Unfortunately 91.303 is fairly sparse in definition.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Two things caught my attention in your post:
1, that anything beyond 30 degrees of bank was considered "aerobatic", and
2, that you had to be a certain minimum altitude or away from the airport to do that.
That just doesn't pass the common sense test. I bring a T-6, T-38 or an F-15 up initial for the overhead pattern, and I lay on an 80-degree turn right over the numbers at 1,000'A....and that's not illegal.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
But thats the military we are talking about
From everything that I've done (flying Cessnas around) 30 degrees was the maximum considered 'normal flight' and by 91.303 anything beyond that is aerobatic. Or so I've been told.
I'll have to ask around and play 'mythbusters' with this one.
From everything that I've done (flying Cessnas around) 30 degrees was the maximum considered 'normal flight' and by 91.303 anything beyond that is aerobatic. Or so I've been told.
I'll have to ask around and play 'mythbusters' with this one.
Holocene
Well-Known Member
But thats the military we are talking about
From everything that I've done (flying Cessnas around) 30 degrees was the maximum considered 'normal flight' and by 91.303 anything beyond that is aerobatic.
I'll have to ask around and play 'mythbusters' with this one.
It's beyond 60, not 30, that is considered aerobatic.
As far as 31 degrees not being required for normal flight, I highly doubt you'll find a citation for that.
Who has not been a little close on downwind, and banked more than 30-degrees to swing it around on final? And I'm not syaing it's "proper"; I just don't think you'll find a citation claiming 31-degrees is aerobatic.
Alos, by your definition, performing a 45-degree banked turn during the private checkride, would mean the DPE must be wearing a parachute.
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