I'm getting a little bit discouraged

If you agree with my statement that love doesn't pay the bills, then it would seem that you completely disagree with the do it because you like it comment you just made.

Do it for the money. It's a job. You do it for the money, not because you love it.
I think you guys are pulling apart these statements a little too much.

You have "a job" because of the money, otherwise it wouldn't be a job. You fly because you have to have "a job", and it's the one you like the most (or dislike the least).

I would never ever ever get a job flying a plane if I could afford not to work at all. But it beats the hell out of other jobs. I'm not a work-a-holic. I never want to go to work. I always want to have days off. I never enjoy work as much as I enjoy...well everything else that I do. But if it's sitting reserve at an airline vs sitting at a desk anywhere else, I know what I'll choose....until I win the lotto and no longer have to have "a job".
 
If you agree with my statement that love doesn't pay the bills, then it would seem that you completely disagree with the do it because you like it comment you just made.

Do it for the money. It's a job. You do it for the money, not because you love it.

Hmmm Tony... I've worked big buck jobs for just the money. No feelings, happiness or joy involved. It did not swing my ship to be a money making robot. Sure, if you're arrogant and spoiled enough you will eventually stop enjoying what you do or even be capable to do what you never really wanted to do. Sure - loving something does not put a number on a check - but the hell with it, I'd rather cash a smaller check. It beats being sour and upset for a lifetime. :rolleyes:
Besides - you cannot reach excellence without truly loving or enjoying what you do.
 
Airline pilots deserve more, especially in respect to work rules and duty limitations. That being said, my last pay stub of 2008 indicated that I made $47,800 on second year FO pay. I will make over $50,000 this year, and I fly 50-seat aircraft.

Qualifiers:
1) I live in base, so I can chose uncommutable schedules (which are sometimes worth more pay than commutable ones).
2) I am a lineholder, so almost $7,000 of my yearly income is per diem.
3) I work for a regional that has an OK pay scale (again, more is deserved).


Keep your chin up and, as Zap said, explore your options!

J.

Holy hell you worked a lot, I forgot what I made my second year but I think it was almost 10k less!!!

I forgot to bid 2x this year already, what a cluster. That hurt my paycheck!
 
Holy hell you worked a lot, I forgot what I made my second year but I think it was almost 10k less!!!

I forgot to bid 2x this year already, what a cluster. That hurt my paycheck!

That is certainly true - I flew 914 hours last year! I hate forgetting to bid!
 
And there are plenty of professionals in other fields with just as much invested in training that do not make 6-figures. My ex-girlfriend has a Ph.D. in Molecular Biology and works as a research oncologist, trying to rid the world of breast cancer ... and she makes $35k a year.
While I agree that there are plenty of fields where you invest quite a bit to get qualified and don't make 6-figures, scientific research generally isn't one of them. At least not what I've seen of it. My wife is a biologist with only a BS (she'll have a masters by the end of the year).
She works for a fortune 100 company and while she doesn't make six figures, she's not far south of it. Most of the other people in her group have Ph.D's and they all make north of six figures. If my wife really wanted to make six figures, there are jobs out there that she could get with her current degree, but they are not jobs that she'd enjoy doing as much as what she does now.

So I'm going to speculate that your ex is making $35k because she likes the company she's working for and the research she's doing. IOW, with her credentials, if she really wanted to make six figures or at least closer to it, she probably could. Most professional pilots do not have that option.

Here's another thing to keep in mind. My wife gets a call from different recruiter almost every week. Each recruiter has a job they want her to apply for. How many pro pilots get calls from recruiters wanting them to go fly for someone else?
 
If you agree with my statement that love doesn't pay the bills, then it would seem that you completely disagree with the do it because you like it comment you just made.

Do it for the money. It's a job. You do it for the money, not because you love it.

Do something you love and you will never work another day in your life. I sure felt like I haven't worked since I got hired. Except the 3 months I was a desk jockey part time.
 
Ok, so I'm not an airline pilot, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much, but I have to ask, why do you want to fly? In my relatively short time as a pilot and working in the aviation industry I have found that if you dont fly because you love it, I think you're going to find a lot of dissapointment.

I'm not trying to sound patronizing, but of course there are parts of flying that suck. But that's the same in any career. (Just ask a first year intern with $150k of med school debt). It's all about weighing the benefits against the disadvantages, and it's different for everyone. The question is, how do they weigh for you? Is walking around an airplane in the freezing cold and dark so that you can watch the sunrise over the mountains worth not getting paid for the walkaround? I know you say in your thread title that you are getting a bit discouraged...don't be, if it's what you love to do, it's what you love to do, the end.

It's not that simple. There is no way someone should accept any job under any conditions for the chance to view a nice sunrise over the mountains. There are too many people out there that would do this job for free(first and second year might as well be for free) just because it's what they love to do and do not consider themselves "working" when flying an airplane. Apparently that rubs off on management as well as support personnel they think we're on a vacation. Make no mistake about it, it's a job and pretty stressful one at that. You are NOT treated as a professional even tough the company expects you to be professional. A pilot will get less acknowledgment than the janitor. There is no management/pilot loyalty(not much better at the majors), and at some places even company/pilot loyalty. You can also lose your license at every moment. I personally would like to see fair compensation, I'm from a regional airline background so my ideas might be a little more harsh. But the reality is that the OP has a cause to be concerned about because the regional industry is on a race to the bottom.
 
Bottom line is, everyone is just discouraged because we are in a recession and the impact of Age 65 has not worn off yet. Doug will probably tell you the post 9-11 forum atmosphere was very similar to what we are experiencing today. Just keep a positive attitude, stay motivated and dedicated, and know that clear skies and tailwinds are ahead!

And one more thing, for those of you that are discouraged, go back and find every post that has a member complaining about the industry. Compare all of their current jobs and experience levels and come back to me and tell me what they all have in common:D
 
While I agree that there are plenty of fields where you invest quite a bit to get qualified and don't make 6-figures, scientific research generally isn't one of them. At least not what I've seen of it. My wife is a biologist with only a BS (she'll have a masters by the end of the year).
She works for a fortune 100 company and while she doesn't make six figures, she's not far south of it. Most of the other people in her group have Ph.D's and they all make north of six figures. If my wife really wanted to make six figures, there are jobs out there that she could get with her current degree, but they are not jobs that she'd enjoy doing as much as what she does now.

So I'm going to speculate that your ex is making $35k because she likes the company she's working for and the research she's doing. IOW, with her credentials, if she really wanted to make six figures or at least closer to it, she probably could. Most professional pilots do not have that option.

Here's another thing to keep in mind. My wife gets a call from different recruiter almost every week. Each recruiter has a job they want her to apply for. How many pro pilots get calls from recruiters wanting them to go fly for someone else?

She's a university researcher - and your point is well made. I left full time college teaching partly because my skills were worth 2x as much in the private sector. My point was that skill alone doesn't dictate wage - supply and demand play a major role too.
 
I have been at a regional for a little over a year. I was very fortunate to get hired while the wheels were still turning and at a very young age. Well I am now on a "no-end-in-sight" reserve line and pretty much at the bottom of the seniority list. I'm not going to complain, though. I knew exactly what might happen when getting in, and although it stinks being stuck on the very bottom, that is a risk that I accepted when I took the job.

When I was just becoming interested in flying at a very young age, all I wanted to do was fly for the airlines. Being really young I think that I just said that it would be easy to just say "it doesn't matter, I won't let it bother me" about things like commuting and reserve and whatnot. Now that I am doing it, my attitude is becoming much different. My values are changing as I gain maturity and experience. Time at home, a simple drive to work, being at a company where your boss knows your name...I didn't realize how much I valued those types of things until I didn't have them on a regular basis.

I know many guys that are in the same neighborhood on the seniority list that I am who are having the time of their lives living it up as a pilot, traveling on their days off, being young and nomadic. I still love flying just the same. I still get to fly airplanes, and that is what I love. But I am starting to realize that perhaps I am best suited for a flying job outside of the airlines. I'm not saying you can't be satisfied with an airline job, I'm just trying to say that it will depend on the kinds of things that you value, what is most important to you. For me, I am looking to get out of the airlines as soon as I can and get a job at a smaller place closer to home - one where I can really get to know my co-workers, bosses, passengers and hopefully be at home more. Does that mean you want the same thing? No. Maybe you do, it's really up to you. All you can do is research and educate yourself to see if it is a path that you will be interested in.

I've had a good time in my short tenure so far at the airlines. I've gotten to see many awesome places, fly with some great guys, play a few practical jokes, and gain some invaluable experience. At the same time, however, I am looking to get out of the airlines for the reasons and values I stated earlier. FWIW.
 
go back and find every post that has a member complaining about the industry. Compare all of their current jobs and experience levels and come back to me and tell me what they all have in common

I'll bite. What is the common thread?
 
Bottom line is, everyone is just discouraged because we are in a recession and the impact of Age 65 has not worn off yet. Doug will probably tell you the post 9-11 forum atmosphere was very similar to what we are experiencing today. Just keep a positive attitude, stay motivated and dedicated, and know that clear skies and tailwinds are ahead!

And one more thing, for those of you that are discouraged, go back and find every post that has a member complaining about the industry. Compare all of their current jobs and experience levels and come back to me and tell me what they all have in common:D

I sure as heck hope you are on some union committee or are planning on running for Rep.... because your responses are always perfect for management.

If you were my pilot, I'd happily impose the following 5 year scale on you as an FO: $18/hr, $20, $22, $23, $24.... 70 hour guarantee, 65 hours on reserve. No limitations on airport reserve per month, and they don't count to your monthly guarantee, so if I want you there for 180 hours you'll still get your 65 hours of pay if I can manage not to use you. You haven't worked at all.... you're not worth money to me if you aren't working. Oh and I think that we should reduce your travel benefits to 1 international round trip per year, no parents or buddies. 401k match? Whatever, this isn't a career, you'll live without it.

Would you work for those wages? Would you work to CHANGE those wages?
 
It's not that simple. There is no way someone should accept any job under any conditions for the chance to view a nice sunrise over the mountains. There are too many people out there that would do this job for free(first and second year might as well be for free) just because it's what they love to do and do not consider themselves "working" when flying an airplane. Apparently that rubs off on management as well as support personnel they think we're on a vacation. Make no mistake about it, it's a job and pretty stressful one at that. You are NOT treated as a professional even tough the company expects you to be professional. A pilot will get less acknowledgment than the janitor. There is no management/pilot loyalty(not much better at the majors), and at some places even company/pilot loyalty. You can also lose your license at every moment. I personally would like to see fair compensation, I'm from a regional airline background so my ideas might be a little more harsh. But the reality is that the OP has a cause to be concerned about because the regional industry is on a race to the bottom.

While OP has cause to be concerned, he also has a very huge opportunity. He could still get the hell out, before turning into a bitter and upset person, whining and complaining about an industry that has been like this for the last 60 years unchanged by it's very own players. I have tremendous trouble seeing the point in getting into a 121 cockpit, heck, I can't even see myself in a regional cockpit. I refuse to bang heads with my peers on this level, but why exactly is it pilots are "treated worse than the janitor"? If it is in fact so, why not BECOME a janitor? The way I see it, there are two different sorts of pilots.

  • Airplane People - they need to reach the biggest tincan they possibly can to feel accomplished and make the money they believe to deserve.
  • People People - who can enjoy the ride, have realized that Aviation is not what it used to be (flying is not) and they do not care for the epauelets or the blue or black uniform.
Pilots are Pilots because they either love to fly, which can be unconditional and from the heart, or they are Pilots because they want to be "Pilots". The latter kind is the one that needs to wear uniform when going to the grocery store, in some helpless attempt to be perceived as a hero or someone special. Face it, flying a widebody LR is no longer what it used to be, many of my friends tell me they might as well be driving a bus.

The only difference, a coachdriver would (literally!) get kicked in the ass if he/ she accepted less than market average for a tour. The starting salary for a Coachcaptain is 45K plus full benefits. They get treated like gold... I know two commercial drivers making well in advance of $100K+.

1.5 weeks from now, I'll be spending $41 dollars + taxes and fees to drive to Boston MA on a Bus. 2 hour trip, movie, endless water and bretzels galore. I'll sit close to the driver (I always assume them to be keeling over soon) because I enjoy the fact that except for the fact that we remain on the ground - this bus will remind me of a airplane cockpit. Lot's of little knobs, dials and handles, noise and it's going to be tight around Boston. If he doesn't move them handles and wheels right, we all die. He'll rip a few stupid comments, ask for cellphones to be used in absolute emergencies only and in the meantime set the cruise to 68... with his lemming passengers either sitting and staring, texting or picking their nose.

A few hours later, I will enter a airline jet and cross the COMPLETE country on a 4-5 hour flight (if we make it, and the pilots have seen the ice, weather, or are not half asleep by the time they taxi out) for a lousy 4 times as much as it cost me to drive a bus for 2 hours. This is :insane:...

The driver even gets to wear a uniform, our busdriver looks neat!

Don't spend your efforts trying to convince people who love flying that it is wrong to love flying. Convince those who bring the industry down by continuing to do what they hate so much from recruiting fresh meat. If anyone can attest to how bad it is to be a something because someone 'expected' him to be, ask my father why he retired as a MD, bought a chainsaw and cuts his own wood today. He did not love being a Doctor and I doubt his income is anywhere close to a quarter of what it used to be. Today, at age 60, he runs a landscaping company, outruns me after a minute, outlifts me at 'ugh', looks like 45, laughs and jokes around all the time and feels alive. We all like him a lot more, for doing what he loves. He even wants to start flying again, now, that his brain is free of the whining and constant sickness of the people he had to deal with every day.

In order for him to go back to medicine, the industry would need to pull a Immelman. He could not change the fact that Government regulated them out of money. Pilots, in turn, CAN change what the industry does with them. Afterall we are not regulated at all, and nobody is overseeing what we do. Airplanes do not fly without pilots. It's the pilots making it a cheap profession by not looking out for each other and failing to uphold professional standards.

Off the soapbox... :) and the next time I read someone blaming Age 65 for anything, I'll poop my pants laughing!
 
She's a university researcher - and your point is well made. I left full time college teaching partly because my skills were worth 2x as much in the private sector. My point was that skill alone doesn't dictate wage - supply and demand play a major role too.
Funny thing. I was discussing this thread and your comments/my response in it with my wife tonight over dinner at the bar. Pretty much the first thing she said was if his ex has a PhD and is making $35k doing research, she's working for a university. I guess my wife knows her field pretty well. :D
 
Funny thing. I was discussing this thread and your comments/my response in it with my wife tonight over dinner at the bar. Pretty much the first thing she said was if his ex has a PhD and is making $35k doing research, she's working for a university. I guess my wife knows her field pretty well. :D

Haha, yeah that's pretty funny :)

She works in the cancer labs at Ohio State
 
I refuse to bang heads with my peers on this level, but why exactly is it pilots are "treated worse than the janitor"?

I didn't say treated worse, I'm saying treated the same or actually with no acknowledgment. Why? So we know our place and more importantly our worth in the company. Management thinks they are doing us, the labor, a favor by allowing us to fly their airplanes. Remember we don't consider it work... everyday is a holiday for a pilot:rolleyes:
 
I didn't say treated worse, I'm saying treated the same or actually with no acknowledgment. Why? So we know our place and more importantly our worth in the company. Management thinks they are doing us, the labor, a favor by allowing us to fly their airplanes. Remember we don't consider it work... everyday is a holiday for a pilot:rolleyes:

Nobody said that everyday in the life of a pilot is a holiday. Where did you read that? Can't find it.
 
I sure as heck hope you are on some union committee or are planning on running for Rep.... because your responses are always perfect for management.

If you were my pilot, I'd happily impose the following 5 year scale on you as an FO: $18/hr, $20, $22, $23, $24.... 70 hour guarantee, 65 hours on reserve. No limitations on airport reserve per month, and they don't count to your monthly guarantee, so if I want you there for 180 hours you'll still get your 65 hours of pay if I can manage not to use you. You haven't worked at all.... you're not worth money to me if you aren't working. Oh and I think that we should reduce your travel benefits to 1 international round trip per year, no parents or buddies. 401k match? Whatever, this isn't a career, you'll live without it.

Would you work for those wages? Would you work to CHANGE those wages?

That'd cut into his trips to the beach.
 
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