How much is too much?

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I find it interesting that the FAA was so concerned about bad commuter pilots back in the early 90's that they passed the PRIA law which required employers to check training and background records. If you had a bad record or washed out of training...you were most likely done in the career.

The FAA evidently has no problem allowing folks who haven't had time to accumulate a record to enter the 121 world.

Dunno, having that hanging over your head in training that if you eff up your whole career is done, is just gonna add more insane amount of stress to a person.

Some people handle stress better than others. Everyone makes mistakes, not sure if your whole career should be at stake.

I've read on boards like this someone failing out at Pinnacle, getting hired at XJT and goin' on from there to be a great, possibly even better, more capable pilot then they were at PNCL.

The important thing is to be able to learn from ones mistakes.

But make no mistakes, this guy in question doesn't deserve to be in a cockpit right now.

 

[bike21]

They are called customers and without them no industry, no job. Question: When will JCers and pilots in general stop blaming their customers and start solving their own problems.

Yep, I know what you are saying. Not blaming the customer 100%, but rather stating the undeniable fact that the flying public has somehow been bred to believe they should be able to fly coast to coast with first class service for $150. Not cool. Everything else in the last 30 years has gone up in price except for airplane tickets.

I may have an answer to all this.

If the airlines are going to make babysitters out of line Capts. They should get paid for it. Say, we'll give you an extra $10/hr to fly with a guy who has less than 500 hours in the seat.

Now, take the money, keep quiet about it, and stop your whining.

I like it.

What about when the CA is a low time upgrade and the FO is low time?

A rule exists for this one. Called the 'green on green' rule. To put it simply, fresh captains can't fly with fresh FO's.

 

[Wolfy]

I find it interesting that the FAA was so concerned about bad commuter pilots back in the early 90's that they passed the PRIA law which required employers to check training and background records. If you had a bad record or washed out of training...you were most likely done in the career.

The FAA evidently has no problem allowing folks who haven't had time to accumulate a record to enter the 121 world.

It's like the rookie who's only been up to bat at the majors twice, but he's hitting 1000.

 

[kellwolf]

The general pilots think when they meet minimums, they're safe to fly for that airline in that plane. Why else would they have their mins there? Why wouldnt people apply when they know they can make more money, and not spend money learning to be a CFI or do banner towing when they know they can get a seniority number and make more money?

I'm sorry, but an airline cant BITCH AND MOAN with their level of applicants and pilots when they lower their standard so much. Either do it, and shut up, or change your standards and benefits to attract the better pilots. Neither is gonna happen in this instance however, and bitching and moaning will continue on both ends of this discussion.

See, that's just it. The mins are low not b/c it's safe, but because people with higher time are getting better jobs. The only way to get those people with more experience is to offer more $$$. The only reason we've seen an uptick in new hires with more experience lately is b/c they can be CAs in a matter of weeks if they have the necessary time. If we weren't so short on CAs, those guys wouldn't touch us with a ten foot pole.

A rule exists for this one. Called the 'green on green' rule. To put it simply, fresh captains can't fly with fresh FO's.

Depends on the airline. Here, if the FO's got 100 hours in type, any CA can fly with him. So, a guy two-three weeks off of OE could be flying with a CA that just came off OE. That sounds like they're both still green to me. The FO (especially if he's a low timer) doesn't really have the experience level to make calls on his own yet, and the other guy might not be used to what the airplane can do yet. Coming from an ERJ into the CRJ, that CA might think he CAN do 1,500 fpm above 23,000 with a full boat. The FO might not know any better either. To make matters worse, the FO might be to intimidated to say anything when the airspeed starts getting dangerously low if the CA doesn't notice.

 

[bike21]

Without looking it up, I think ours is basically the same. (I should know this already for my oral!) While it offers some protection, it isn't perfect - just like the example you gave.

 

[staplegun]

Dunno, having that hanging over your head in training that if you eff up your whole career is done, is just gonna add more insane amount of stress to a person.

Some people handle stress better than others. Everyone makes mistakes, not sure if your whole career should be at stake.

Umm, Max? That's the job, man! If you can't handle occasional "insane amounts of stress" then you shouldn't be there...

Our whole careers are at stake every time we walk onto our airplane in the 121 world...

I've read on boards like this someone failing out at Pinnacle, getting hired at XJT and goin' on from there to be a great, possibly even better, more capable pilot then they were at PNCL.

The important thing is to be able to learn from ones mistakes.

Ok, I'll buy this, but airlines shouldn't be benevolent societies...

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen!

If you can't fly the plane, get out of the cockpit!

But make no mistakes, this guy in question doesn't deserve to be in a cockpit right now.

Duh! (not directed at you but at the training department/LCA's of the airline involved)



Kevin

 

[flyover]

but rather stating the undeniable fact that the flying public has somehow been bred to believe they should be able to fly coast to coast with first class service for $150. Not cool. Everything else in the last 30 years has gone up in price except for airplane tickets.

What are you talking about? Bred to believe?? Do you think customers dream up the fares that are offered? Do you expect them to insist on higher fares? Go ahead and raise the fares. The more you raise fares, the more of the public will stay home and just say "this trip isn't worth the price." They won't grumble about it, the low fares weren't their idea, they came from airlines that wanted to make more money.

Airplane tickets are not priced "like everything else." They used to be priced by the government and airlines were tiny, very few people flew, and as tiny as airlines were they still often flew with load factors in the 30s and 40s. And they often lost money and laid off people.

The ability to charge a wide variety of fares and implement yield management programs to increase revenues (which is the whole point) was a major driving force behind the huge boom in air travel that made all these jobs possible. You're quite possibly nostalgic for an era that never really existed. And for sure if it had been maintained most of you wouldn't be talking about being airline pilots.

 

[bike21]

What are you talking about? Bred to believe?? Do you think customers dream up the fares that are offered? Do you expect them to insist on higher fares? Go ahead and raise the fares. The more you raise fares, the more of the public will stay home and just say "this trip isn't worth the price." They won't grumble about it, the low fares weren't their idea, they came from airlines that wanted to make more money.

.

I dunno, I'm talking outta my a$$ But seriously, no nostalgia here. I just get tired of the low expectation for ticket prices and equally high expectation for superior customer service. In a perfect world that would work fine. SWA was in that world for a long time, but the no frills things is getting old. People want services and amenities. No to be treated like cattle. At least I don't.

If it costs you $1000 in gas to drive across the country in 20 hours (hotels and food not included), why does a person then complain about a $400 round trip ticket on a 4 hour flight?

Ok, gotta go study

 

[88MPH]

The cynical side of me says that management knows about the problems, but it is cheaper for them to keep paying a check airman to baby sit instead of canceling the flight due to lack of FOs.

This is the saddest realistic statement spoken yet. It's evidence of a truly profit based business. Sure, the hiring board is "most likely" made of pilots who know what takes, but they have superiors that quite possibly don't know an APU from an AHOLE.

But on the brighter side, for those that preach to youngins about learning as a CFI before regionals/freight, in todays industry, it looks like they'll get their chance eventually .

Its horrifying to see that some pilots don't take their job seriously enough to even be able to know that 2000>1800.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Umm, Max? That's the job, man! If you can't handle occasional "insane amounts of stress" then you shouldn't be there...

Our whole careers are at stake every time we walk onto our airplane in the 121 world...




Ok, I'll buy this, but airlines shouldn't be benevolent societies...

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen!

If you can't fly the plane, get out of the cockpit!






Duh! (not directed at you but at the training department/LCA's of the airline involved)



Kevin

Definitely not arguing with you Kev,simply stating an opinion. If someone fails out of 5-10 groundschools he or she should never fly pax ever again.

But if Joe six pack fails out of ASA groundschool and were talking like not severly, not sure if his/her career should come to a grinding halt. Fail out of two groundschools and then maybe yes, or put on a FAA watch list.

That's almost like saying failing a check ride in training at ATP will end ones career before it even began. More especially since there are individuals who have failed out at one airline, and again learned from their mistakes, take that info with them to another airline and succeed where they failed at airline XYZ.

Repeated patterns of failure, yes, but one fail and look for a new career. that sounds too harsh IMO.

 

[BobDDuck]

Our green on green policy requires that either pilot must have 100 hours in a seat. However, that includes either seat so as long as the new CA has at least 100 hours of time in the right seat, it doesn't matter how much time the FO has.

 

[kellwolf]

Our green on green policy requires that either pilot must have 100 hours in a seat. However, that includes either seat so as long as the new CA has at least 100 hours of time in the right seat, it doesn't matter how much time the FO has.

The problem I have with that is what happens when you get someone that was a low time FO, upgrades and doesn't know when and when not to take the controls. That's something a CFI has LOTS of experience with. You'll more than likely run the gambit of guys taking the controls from new FOs b/c they're scared and guys letting new FOs go too far and risk damage to the airframe.

Then there's my standing arguement on the low timers from places like JetU: the first time they'll be making a PIC decision will be in the left seat of an airplane with passengers in the back. It's pretty darn easy to fake it over in the right seat until your number comes up for upgrade.

 

[MFT1Air]

yea i think transtates is hiring at 225/25. Thats not much experience for flying an embraer around. When I got hired on at eagle I had 900, which is still low, but to only have 225 hours, you can get just to that just with flight training, with only the required solos. Yet you can fly around with 50 people in the back.

I'm 160/30 and that's scary even for me.

 

[HeyEng]

Don't you think that this will have to end eventually? I mean there are only so many seats out there, so can it get much worse than it is now? I know that there is a lot of discussion about "increasing passenger traffic" and such, but there is lots of people at the regionals, but the "outgoing" at the legacies is so slow, hiring like this cannot go on indefinitely. I know this doesn't address todays problem, but will it get worse?

 

[Trip7]

Don't you think that this will have to end eventually? I mean there are only so many seats out there, so can it get much worse than it is now? I know that there is a lot of discussion about "increasing passenger traffic" and such, but there is lots of people at the regionals, but the "outgoing" at the legacies is so slow, hiring like this cannot go on indefinitely. I know this doesn't address todays problem, but will it get worse?

That horse has been beaten too It'll get much worse IMO. Major pay increase coming soon.

 

[bike21]

Horses scare me

 

[Hacker15e]

Regarding being "ready" for moving to the next step up in an aviation career.

Just because you don't personally feel you are ready to make the next step -- leaving your CFI job for a regional, upgrading to captain, becoming a check airman -- doesn't mean you ARE NOT ready.

In the military, we are constantly pushed through upgrades -- wingmen become flight leads, flight leads become mission commanders or instructors, instructors become evaluators...the list goes on and on and it's literally not possible to get to the top of the heap.

I have NEVER felt like I was completely READY for any of the upgrades I had. Yet, my leadership felt that I had the skills to do them when they picked me for the upgrades. Sure enough, I was actually ready, I just didn't have enough awareness or confidence to really know it.

So, individuals cannot be the barometer of when they themselves are ready -- they don't have the experience to make that call.

The burden is on the leadership -- more senior pilots, hiring committees, training instructors -- to properly evaluate the skills of their applicants, interviewees, trainees and MAKE THE RIGHT CALL.

As others have mentioned, in a business where economics is the bottom line, making the right call is much tougher than it seems in a vacuum.

 

[Alchemy]

I fly with a regional FO fresh off IOE about every other week. At least at my airline they're fine. Sure they're not chuck yeager and sometimes the landings need a little work, but I'm there in part to make sure they don't do anything unsafe, and I don't let them. As far as what goes during OE itself, yeah, I'm sure it's rough, but that's why we have OE and that's why the ckeck airmen get paid that override. If you hire someone with no jet experience and expect them to be able to fly the thing very well after just 30 hours in some simulator I think you're in for a big suprise.

I still remember my first day in the jet like it was yesterday, 45 minute legs with abnormals going off left and right, icing, autopilot failed, bleed temperature problems, and my first landing earned me some choice explitives from the check airman in the left seat. I topped that day off with a night non-precision approach into a a city in the florida panhandle with thunderstorms and heavy rain all round. I had my head so far up my @ss it was almost unbelievable. But guess what, by the end of the 25-30 hours of OE I gave me, I had worked the problems out and things went pretty well.

As long as they use their time in the right seat well, pick up on what they need to, and learn good judgement, they will make good captains eventually. As a captain at the regionals today you will still need to use the skills you learned as a flight instructor in order to mentor your co-workers. While frustrating at times, personally I find that part of my job somewhat rewarding.

 

[Sprint100]

Honest with themselves? Howso?

The general pilots think when they meet minimums, they're safe to fly for that airline in that plane. Why else would they have their mins there? Why wouldnt people apply when they know they can make more money, and not spend money learning to be a CFI or do banner towing when they know they can get a seniority number and make more money?

I'm sorry, but an airline cant BITCH AND MOAN with their level of applicants and pilots when they lower their standard so much. Either do it, and shut up, or change your standards and benefits to attract the better pilots. Neither is gonna happen in this instance however, and bitching and moaning will continue on both ends of this discussion.

What SeanD said!!!!

 

[DE727UPS]

"As a captain at the regionals today you will still need to use the skills you learned as a flight instructor in order to mentor your co-workers."

Well, what if you never were a flight instructor because the academy you went to said "seniority is everything, get on the list now". So, instead of wasting time with the CFI, you paid for an RJ course with a guaranteed interview and next thing your know....you're an airline pilot at 300 hours.