How much is too much?

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You know, I would love to sit here and defend regional pilots, but I really can't do it in all situations. There are times when I'm getting on an airplane to jumpseat somewhere, and I ask myself what the implications would be if I pulled my rollaboard out of the overhead and got off the airplane. Times like that are few and far between, however. I generally think most guys and gals do a good job, but the "ten-percenters" ruin it for the rest of us.

I will tell you right now, if you are a passenger on my airplane, you will have a very professional flight crew up in the cockpit who cares about your safety and comfort. Period. If you'd prefer to bypass a "commuter" flight because of any misconceptions you have about our crews, then I am sorry. I believe we have great crews and a great product. We have our fair share of problems; I don't want to air our dirty laundry on the forum, however.

There is a major problem with the hiring processes at every level in the airline industry. In addition, there are major problems in training, standardization, and management. It seems like all these problems have been pointed out in this thread. Thing is, we likely won't see any major changes unless we force change. As someone who has gotten involved, trying to make a difference, it is hard to continue to work to make this industry better when all your hear is how people are screwing up and not paying attention. It feels like we are getting nowhere. Even with some airline accidents lately at the regional level (Corporate Airlines, October 2004; Pinnacle Airlines, 2005; Comair, 2006) that were blamed directly on pilot error, we have seen no changes in the way we do things. There are still mistakes being made every day on the line.

The only way we will improve is by self-policing ourselves. This is the most difficult thing to do, however, because nobody wants to be "that guy." Us young men and women are so immature, we value others opinions of us more than safety. We don't want to speak up and help mentor, offering constructive criticism, because it would make us appear to be one of those micro-managers we hold such disdain for. This is one of the biggest reasons why flight instructors make such great captains; it is not because of their flying skills, but rather their ability to offer constructive criticism by applying appropriate amounts of assertiveness balanced with tact. That is something most 20-something don't have.

It is time to face the facts: The customers will not fight for change, and management won't fight for change. Why? The customers will not because of two reasons. First, they would prefer to think that their flight is safe, and live in ignorant bliss. Second, they do not want to pay for the increased ticket prices that would be required to appropriately compensate qualified crewmembers. Then of course, management will not force change, because they have different goals than we do as crewmembers. Most management (not flight operations management, but executive management) is worried about the bottom line and the business. They are concerned about stock price, cost control, and their shareholders. Little do they know that safety and crew performance will affect their bottom line at some point, should they allow standards to slip even more.

We have a massive challenge in front of us. Sad to say, I don't think there are enough of us who want to push for effective change to accomplish anything. Most of us would rather live in ignorant bliss, hoping that we don't crash and airplane and the paychecks still come in. Even more would prefer to allow complacency to settle in, since it makes their lives easier and the job more bearable. I am one fighting against complacency, because I enjoy my job and hope for career longevity. I will admit I am starting to fall into "ostrich syndrome," where I would like to bury my head in the sand and just pray I can get hired at a major before my airline, or any other regional airline, crashes an airplane.
 
Listen up bud!:) If you want to have that opinion, great! Just remember though, it's just that, your opinion, and it's not based on experience.;) Correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree with John, however, based on experience, I also agree with you Bigey to a point. I have flown with a couple non-instructors and they were excellent. They were definitely an exception though. Experienced instructors who are good pilots to begin with, make much better pilots and captains.


Too harsh?? Hope not, don't mean to be.:) Just my take on your last couple posts.

Agreed. I guess i wasnt really rating the "success" part off of experience, well because lets face it, i dont have any experience with it.

My point being you can say, is that i just didnt want it to be left at "everyone besides CFI's are bad" type view.

However, i do have a question...how can one rate non CFI FO, and how their abilities are when they upgrade to captain, when you're captain and most likely will never fly with them? Does that make sense?
 
Yeh.. There are 10%ers at every level of this industry..

My pops and I were having a conversation much like this just last week over dinner..

He had an FO this last month that turned a standard go around into quite an ordeal.. On the go around, the insanity that followed was enough for my dad to get on the ground and call the tower on his cell phone, immediately..

One of the few times he said he has taken the controls from an FO..
 
Yeh.. There are 10%ers at every level of this industry..

My pops and I were having a conversation much like this just last week over dinner..

He had an FO this last month that turned a standard go around into quite an ordeal.. On the go around, the insanity that followed was enough for my dad to get on the ground and call the tower on his cell phone, immediately..

One of the few times he said he has taken the controls from an FO..

Your pops is a pilot also? That's pretty sweet man!

Is your pops at a regional too or at a major?
 
Your pops is a pilot also? That's pretty sweet man!

Is your pops at a regional too or at a major?

My pops is at a major..

Actually, my pops, uncle and grandfather are all pilots - all military.. I'm the first civvy..

It is pretty sweet though.. I've been extremely fortunate to grow up around airline captains.. I can pick up the phone any time of day and usually have any question that pops up answered rather quickly..

My pops was also my instructor, but didn't get to count it, as he wasn't a civvy instructor.. So I had to get another instructor for the legal stuff. :)
 
My pops is at a major..

Actually, my pops, uncle and grandfather are all pilots - all military.. I'm the first civvy..

It is pretty sweet though.. I've been extremely fortunate to grow up around airline captains.. I can pick up the phone any time of day and usually have any question that pops up answered rather quickly..

My pops was also my instructor, but didn't get to count it, as he wasn't a civvy instructor.. So I had to get another instructor for the legal stuff. :)

Wow, that's friggen sweet!!

One day i'd like to teach my dad how to fly. He's always wanted to learn, but had other responsibilities as not to spend on flying lessons. A way i can repay him back for paying for my lessons!:p:rawk::rawk:
 
Just to kinda build on what Matt said (which was pretty much spot on, as usual), we've got an interesting problem here at PCL. About the time we start getting the new FOs to the point where they're comfortable in the plane and getting safer.....they leave. So, now we have to start over again with another FO out of training. It's a viscious cycle, and it gets frustrating as pilots. We've told management time and again how much money they would save with increased pay since they wouldn't be re-training FOs about every 6 months. It's fallen on deaf ears so far. In fact, we ran the numbers recently. Back in March, when we ALMOST had a contract, we were about $4 million a year apart on the pay stuff, and they wouldn't budge. So far, we've paid out over $4.3 million this year in penalities to NWA ALONE. That doesn't even factor in the increased training costs b/c of guys leaving and the bonuses they're paying just to get people to refer other pilots to the airlines. So, to me that says they'd rather pay more per year than just sign a contract for the pay rates we want. Doesn't make much business sense, but if you look at it from the "bruised ego" standpoint of the CEO and co giving in, it makes perfect sense. Fact is, I have next to no confidence in the leadership at this airline. They say they're trying to get more flying from other carriers, but I don't see how we'd get it with the threat of a pilot strike (and Colgan probably going ALPA along with that) hanging over them. I was shocked we got the Delta contract, actually.

So, I actually DO fault management for our level of experience and professionalism at this airline. If they'd actually wake up and see what's going on, I think our experience and professionalism would be directly affected by a better contract. We'd be able to attract better quality applicants and the ones that have come along since training would stay and upgrade rather than going to CHQ, Skywest, XJT, etc.
 
I think you can still end up a great captain and can still teach your FO without having that CFI ticket.

You know, Bigey, Don's forgotten more about flying than you know.

You may want to listen to someone who's been there, done that, and has the battle scars to prove it instead of saying, oh, even though I've never spent a minute working for a part 121 operation, I think you're wrong.
 
Wow, that's friggen sweet!!

One day i'd like to teach my dad how to fly. He's always wanted to learn

Yeh, it's cool.. I really learned a lot from him.. I remember about our 2nd "lesson" I was flying too wide of a pattern and there went my engine.. :) All he said was.. "Gonna make the pavement?" I learned a lot flying with him.

He's my flyin' buddy on my off days.. :)

I want to buy my pops a 1967 GTO like the one he had when he was my age.. Either that or a TR6 like the one he had to pay him back for all he's done for me..
 
I want to buy my pops a 1967 GTO like the one he had when he was my age.. Either that or a TR6 like the one he had to pay him back for all he's done for me..

Better yet, buy it as a project car and build it with him. I grew up building 'Vettes with my Dad. Wasn't as wild about it at the time, but I find I really cherish those memories.
 
Better yet, buy it as a project car and build it with him. I grew up building 'Vettes with my Dad. Wasn't as wild about it at the time, but I find I really cherish those memories.

Kinda funny you should mention that.. That's sorta what I had in mind..

I am currently reworking my Trans Am.. :) About to throw a new cam and some new heads on her.. :D
 
getting thru the SIM and the PC are much different than IOE.... especially with winter coming on.... hard to fathom some 50 ME guy in the right seat of the barbie jet at say ORD during IOE with the nasty wx there... or say ALB at mins with blowing snow and ice....

bottom line...some will ..some wont.....
 
You know, Bigey, Don's forgotten more about flying than you know.

You may want to listen to someone who's been there, done that, and has the battle scars to prove it instead of saying, oh, even though I've never spent a minute working for a part 121 operation, I think you're wrong.

Dont mean to beat a dead horse, but i'm not just saying this for the heck of it. I meant off of a true testament. One of our very own members here got hired EXTREMELY low time, and ended up being a captain and teaching ground school and stuff. Doesnt have a CFI ticket, but can be worthy of FO's praise. Not saying all are like that, but just because i havent done this myself doesnt mean i dont know of a few that havent.

I'm not saying Don is wrong, i'm just saying theres 2 sides to it.
 
I had actually missed this story and i'm glad I read Bob's orignial post and experience. The problem I see it does indeed stem from the issues with low time pilots, but its more apparent now due to the regional pilot shortage (shortage of qualified applicants that are prepared to work for slave ages).

The thing is, I dont really blame any guy for grabbing a job when he is offered one. I think the blame, somewhat has to rest with management, heres why:

Management has basically comprised the safety of flight operations by accepting people into class who have no business being there. Forget about the actual hrs of some of the new hires...look at their actual skill level. clearly, as the applicant stack gets shorter, they are going to be taking people that haveno business being ina cockpit let alone in commercial aviation. I would suspect that alot of the "Bad Egg's" probably fall into that basket and likely no amount of training or experience will make them decent sticks.

The factor driving all this along is really rubbish wages and QOL. If we started to lift the pay and QOL that alot of the regionals have then we would again start to see some quality guys deciding to enter the industry and increased applciations. This would have the affect of increasing the applicant pool that the larger airlines can scoop from.

So rather than having ALPA or another body lobbying towards increased mins maybe the issue could be solved by better contracts in the long run.

Now, I understand that increased hrs is going to bring a better quality of applicant....but the bottom of the barrel is still the bottom of the barrel whichever way you look at it. By increasing conditions we can hopefully increase the barrel size.

So IMHO rather than looking at just increased mins and regulatory changes maybe better contracts are the answer...obviusly thats easier said than done.

Now this is just my 2 cents...lots of you have way more experience than me, so i'm open to any comments y'all might have.

Cheers
aussieflyer
 
considering that this topic is from August and restarted in October (ie: necroposted) and that it is already 6 pages long... i think if you want to rehash, it should probably be in a new thread.
 
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