How much is too much?

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Timbuff10 said:
So why are all these airlines exempt from providing more training for these guys that they don't already have? Airlines know they are not hiring 1500 hr guys that already have their ATP. The 80s and 90s are over, people hired at 500 hrs are going to need some training beyond what has traditionally been given at new hire training at airlines.

Why can't we change things so the airlines foot the bill for some of our training?

Just looking through my books on the ERJ here and I can't think of how another couple hundred or even a thousand more hours in a rentable GA aircraft would prepare me to deal with "continuous motoring" or "APUs shutting down at 104% rotor speed", not to mention operating at thirty seven thousand feet.
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Not all airlines make the trainee foot the bill for extra training. My airline requires an unsat training event, so they can justify spending more money on a trainee that requires additional training. Everything aside, I think it's CRAZY that an airline make someone who is having mucho problems pay for extra sim time. That's like saying, straight up, "Hey, we don't think you're gonna make it, but if you think otherwise, the sims ALL YOURS, but we're sure as heck NOT paying for it!"
 
killbilly said:
I was sort of kicking the idea around like this.... - Billy's Regional Airline owns a share (or shares) of a couple 135 freight companies. Pilots who meet the 135 specs are eligible for some special hiring from BRA (heh) and they are only eligible at, say, 2,000TT and 100 multi (minimum) with demonstrated, sharp instrument skills.

Here's the key - pilots who do it this way, hire in at a typical PAY RATE commensurate with typical experience in the 121 world.
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This could be done significantly easier, however it would require the pay and benefits at BRA Airlines to be both large and perky.

Create one seniority list. BRA Enterprises, Inc. owns BRA Airlines and BRA Cargo. Pilots are hired initially for BRA Cargo, flying checks around. As their seniority number allows, they can bid into BRA Airlines, and be paid their wage rate for their years of service with the company in their airframe.

If BRA Airlines was a good Company (ie akin to a major) people would gladly fly for the feeder because the upward mobility is high.
 
Yeah, I know a captain personally at a particular Delta Connection carrier, that told me that he was flying with a low timer, and he told me he had to use the words "my controls" and one point in the flight. Needless to say, he (the captain) flew the rest of the trip.
 
wheelsup said:
My post addressed one item, and that was that people were running to the regionals because flying props was "the end of the world" albeit at low time. I gave several reasons why going to, and then staying at, a regional would be beneficial, I NEVER said you were wasting your time, or called you prop trash, or suggested YOU go to a regional.

And seriously, who cares what others say about you? You are doing what you like to do, and you earn your living doing it. That sounds like a pretty good life to me.

Anyway, back on topic, a lot of the new hires are washing out at my company. I'm not sure how many they need to hire, we aren't really that short of FO's and once the new CA's hit the line in September/October time frame we'll be back up to "normal", so I think they can "afford" to wash people out and not have to cancel flights.
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I have a question for ya

I know a few gulfstreamers just got hired on at your place. Would you feel more comfortable them in the cockpit or someone who still has 300 hours in a 172?

Not trying to start a poo flinging contest, just wondering.
 
Timbuff10 said:
Why can't we change things so the airlines foot the bill for some of our training?

Just looking through my books on the ERJ here and I can't think of how another couple hundred or even a thousand more hours in a rentable GA aircraft would prepare me to deal with "continuous motoring" or "APUs shutting down at 104% rotor speed", not to mention operating at thirty seven thousand feet.
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In a way, they are. I've talked to at least 5 CAs that said they felt like they were giving instrument ground school to FOs over the past several weeks.

"We need to hold the DME off the VOR."
"Uh....wait. Where do you see that on the plate."
"The identifier under the distance. It's for the VOR, not the LOC."
"Uh....what?"

Another one, after being told "5000 till established, cleared for the approach."

"LOC1 is active, set 2000."
<FO looks at chart, looks at PFD. Does nothing.>
"Uh....set 2000....please?"
<FO looks at chart again, still does nothing>
"Yo, I said set 2000."
"ATC said 5000, though."
"Yeah, 'until established.' When the green line is in the center, we're established."

It is NOT the airline's responsibility to train these people to instrument PTS standards. They should already be there. It IS the airline's responsibility to let these guys go that can't handle stuff like that. Instead, they're relying on the line CAs to fill in the gaps in training.
 
kellwolf said:
Another one, after being told "5000 till established, cleared for the approach."

"LOC1 is active, set 2000."
<FO looks at chart, looks at PFD. Does nothing.>
"Uh....set 2000....please?"
<FO looks at chart again, still does nothing>
"Yo, I said set 2000."
"ATC said 5000, though."
"Yeah, 'until established.' When the green line is in the center, we're established."
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:panic::banghead: That is sad...
 
Tram said:
I was talking to my captain during OE.. He said it's horrible.. They get guys that simply can't even talk on the friggin radios.. GUys who have never flown through a REAL cloud..

All sorts of stories.. One of my OE guys was telling me he got a kid who couldn't talk on the radio to save his life and the CA was gettin' a little tired of having to do EVERYTHING and the kid copped and attitude and looked at him and said:

"WHAT? You expect me to talk like a PROFESSIONAL on the radios?"

He said all he could muster was a.. "Yes, son.. Yes, we do..."
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I've heard those stories, too. In fact, it's a friggin epidemic. It sounds like a lot of the guys that come out of training can't use the radios to save their lives. Considering some are coming from JetU, and this is really the first time they've had to use radios, it's not really surprising. You don't do a lot of radio usage stuff in the sims.

What REALLY amazes me is the stories I hear from CAs trying to help some of the guys out. The new FO gets this holier-than-thou attitude and acts like he already knows everything. Several CAs used to always tell their FOs when they were being evaluated on probation. They don't anymore. That way, if the guy DOES cop an attitude, he doesn't know he's being evaluated and it goes on the form.
 
There is an interesting article in the ALPA magazine about the Multi Crew License that is coming soon. The training would all be geared towards the actual aircraft that the applicant would be flying and the type of flying they would be doing. It would use full motion sims for a lot of the training and the training would be a lot of LOFT scenarios. However, one big problem people see is that in the sim world, even during LOFT, radio communications are often not done and if they are, they are hardly realistic.
 
Bigey said:
I have a question for ya

I know a few gulfstreamers just got hired on at your place. Would you feel more comfortable them in the cockpit or someone who still has 300 hours in a 172?

Not trying to start a poo flinging contest, just wondering.
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Depends entirely on the person. If they know what they are doing...who cares. If they're idiots, it wouldn't matter if they had 10,000 hours in a 747.
 
"Would you feel more comfortable them in the cockpit or someone who still has 300 hours in a 172?"

I'd rather have the 172 guy cause I know he didn't screw the profession.
 
I may have an answer to all this.

If the airlines are going to make babysitters out of line Capts. They should get paid for it. Say, we'll give you an extra $10/hr to fly with a guy who has less than 500 hours in the seat.

Now, take the money, keep quiet about it, and stop your whining.
 
This is identical to what is happening to SKYW as well. This is an industry wide problem that WILL NOT get fixed. No one cares except the guys who fly with these inexperienced pilots.
 
mrivc211 said:
This is identical to what is happening to SKYW as well. This is an industry wide problem that WILL NOT get fixed. No one cares except the guys who fly with these inexperienced pilots.
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I find it interesting that the FAA was so concerned about bad commuter pilots back in the early 90's that they passed the PRIA law which required employers to check training and background records. If you had a bad record or washed out of training...you were most likely done in the career.

The FAA evidently has no problem allowing folks who haven't had time to accumulate a record to enter the 121 world.
 
What about when the CA is a low time upgrade and the FO is low time? With all the low time pilots getting hired this is sure to happen eventually, right? I cant imagine a bunch of well qualified captains sticking around to babysit ect. You would think the stress factor would eventually take its toll and they would apply elsewhere or move on to mainline and that leaves a lot of open left seats.
 
Sprint100 said:
Too bad, the vast majority of folks can't be that honest with themselves:banghead:
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Honest with themselves? Howso?

The general pilots think when they meet minimums, they're safe to fly for that airline in that plane. Why else would they have their mins there? Why wouldnt people apply when they know they can make more money, and not spend money learning to be a CFI or do banner towing when they know they can get a seniority number and make more money?

I'm sorry, but an airline cant BITCH AND MOAN with their level of applicants and pilots when they lower their standard so much. Either do it, and shut up, or change your standards and benefits to attract the better pilots. Neither is gonna happen in this instance however, and bitching and moaning will continue on both ends of this discussion.
 
"so concerned about bad commuter pilots back in the early 90's that they passed the PRIA law"

That was after a crash involving a Capt with several previous training failures. FAR's written in blood.

It could happen again before anything is done about the problem.
 
Bigey said:
Honest with themselves? Howso?

The general pilots think when they meet minimums, they're safe to fly for that airline in that plane. Why else would they have their mins there? Why wouldnt people apply when they know they can make more money, and not spend money learning to be a CFI or do banner towing when they know they can get a seniority number and make more money?

I'm sorry, but an airline cant BITCH AND MOAN with their level of applicants and pilots when they lower their standard so much. Either do it, and shut up, or change your standards and benefits to attract the better pilots. Neither is gonna happen in this instance however, and bitching and moaning will continue on both ends of this discussion.
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I think what Sprint is saying was that people get impatient and want that jet job now instead of taking the time to reflect back on their ability to actually perform the job at 110%. I dont think making more money has a whole lot to do with it. The chances are the applicant is making more money than the 1st regional pay at what ever job they currently held before getting that class date.
 
This guy doesn't belong anywhere near a regional jet right now.

What are his times?

Some people just simply can't do it. They lack the natural ADM and flying skills to be a professional pilot- like a.... Pilot754.

How low IS too low?

At most schools around the country a Master's Degree used to be a REQUIREMENT to teach. Now all that is required is a 4 year degree in many states. Florida to be specific.

As teachers become more and more sparse, how low is too low?

There is a shortage of nurses...requirements for nurses are being dropped. How low is too low?

I most certainly agree that Sub 500 is too low. I'm only at 520, so might as well throw me in there. But I believe that with hard work and sweat, I can be just as good as a 1000'er.
 
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