How much is too much?

[flyover]

If I was starting out today, I don't believe I'd pursue employment at the commuters. It's just not a workforce I'd be proud to be a part of.

And yet it's a workforce ALPA worked so hard to create. This couldn't point up better that there are no upper and lower levels, no minor/major leagues, no regional level vs. mainline.

There are only pilots flying jet airplanes full of passengers on a schedule. The same guys doing the same job for the same company divided into (who knows anymore) 6, 7, 8 pilot groups?

The ALPA can't even admit there is a problem with this. Yet it violates the most fundamental union principle there is.

 

[staplegun]

As for the IOE guy, if at this point he can't level off at altitude it's time for the streets. This guy is our responsibility, not the customers.

Longer term solution would be the same as the military which demands that it's pilots fly complex missions in complex airplanes with very low experience.

IOW it's the training stupid. This guy should have washed out of training and not even be on the line getting an IOE. The solution will be at the training level because there is no pool of experienced pilots to meet the demand. FYI the majors have always hired very low time pilots when they had to. There is nothing new going on here.

If current trends continue it won't be long before airlines in the US will be hiring non-pilots and training them. What the financial arrangements will be, I don't know, but if the training is excellent and the wash out criteria is brutal enough good pilots will be produced. A well trained pilot with good operation procedures is heads above a poorly trained pilot with lots of experience.

:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat: X 1,000,000!!!!

Took the words right out of my mouth!

Kevin

 

[staplegun]

And yet it's a workforce ALPA worked so hard to create. This couldn't point up better that there are no upper and lower levels, no minor/major leagues, no regional level vs. mainline.

There are only pilots flying jet airplanes full of passengers on a schedule. The same guys doing the same job for the same company divided into (who knows anymore) 6, 7, 8 pilot groups?

The ALPA can't even admit there is a problem with this. Yet it violates the most fundamental union principle there is.

:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat: X 1,000,000!


Wow Flyover, you're pretty smart!


Kevin

 

[jtrain609]

This is what I love.

Mainline pilots want to throw regional pilots under the bus, even though mainline pilots are the ones that signed away scope ("Send those damned little jets to the commuters!!!")

Regional and freight pilots want to throw each other under the bus, thinking that the other group is scum and that each group is full of better pilots. If you fly freight, you're a dangerous, stupid SOB and if you for a regional you're a naive, dangerous, inexperienced SOB that will lawn dart an RJ.

All in all, it means this profession goes nowhere because of the in fighting.

Classic.

I think management has won.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat: X 1,000,000!


Wow Flyover, you're pretty smart!


Kevin

And in a previous life, a widget!

 

[KLB]

....and when it comes time to go to a major, the mainlines aren't looking at me because, apparrently, my single pilot 135 type rating is not gonna be worth much...anic: while the regionals are hiring people that are taking forever/barely making it through training?

Makes alot of sense to me!

 

[jtrain609]

....and when it comes time to go to a major, the mainlines aren't looking at me because, apparrently, my single pilot 135 type rating is not gonna be worth much...anic: while the regionals are hiring people that are taking forever/barely making it through training?

Makes alot of sense to me!

It sucks, but how many guys have actually passed their interviews recently? The two guys to Allegiant and then the ACP to CAL mainline? CAL's taking Express Jet FO's up to mainline right now, but you had to be an Ameriflight ACP to get on with CAL?

I think it's stupid, but I'm not in the HR department.

 

[Airdale]

My opinion - and I've said it all along - has nothing to do with total flight time and everything to do with standards and training.

This pilot should have been canned during sim training, and then canned during his first attempt at IOE. How many times can someone demonstrate a lack of proficiency before they are taken out of the cockpit? Absolutely ridiculous!!

Seggy, you speak frequently of low time pilots, yet you were a low timer just as I was. You haven't put an airplane into the ground, you didn't struggle, and now you're a Captain that was a low time FO. Point being, you had the skill and knowledge when you were a low time new hire. You demonstrated your ability and your decision making, made it through training, payed your dues as an FO and now you're a good Captain.

It has nothing to do with how much flight time a person has. Some people need a lot of flight time to become good aviators, others take much less time to acquire the ability.

Now I agree, there has to be a standard number of flight hours set in place to review and hire applicants. But I think whats way more important then setting this number, is training and evaluation of the applicant! You must constantly evalute the applicant during the training process. Any weakness or fault that is determined to be unsafe or uncorrectable in a reasonable amount of time and training, should render that applicant ineligable for the position. Bottom line. Period.

The blame should not be put on those with low time who can't perform to the standard or those with high time who can't peform to the standard. The blame should be placed on the Airline for letting these people continue through training or continue to fly the aircraft with passengers. Unacceptable.

 

[tprops4me]

My opinion - and I've said it all along - has nothing to do with total flight time and everything to do with standards and training.

This pilot should have been canned during sim training, and then canned during his first attempt at IOE. How many times can someone demonstrate a lack of proficiency before they are taken out of the cockpit? Absolutely ridiculous!!

Seggy, you speak frequently of low time pilots, yet you were a low timer just as I was. You haven't put an airplane into the ground, you didn't struggle, and now you're a Captain that was a low time FO. Point being, you had the skill and knowledge when you were a low time new hire. You demonstrated your ability and your decision making, made it through training, payed your dues as an FO and now you're a good Captain.

It has nothing to do with how much flight time a person has. Some people need a lot of flight time to become good aviators, others take much less time to acquire the ability.

Now I agree, there has to be a standard number of flight hours set in place to review and hire applicants. But I think whats way more important then setting this number, is training and evaluation of the applicant! You must constantly evalute the applicant during the training process. Any weakness or fault that is determined to be unsafe or uncorrectable in a reasonable amount of time and training, should render that applicant ineligable for the position. Bottom line. Period.

The blame should not be put on those with low time who can't perform to the standard or those with high time who can't peform to the standard. The blame should be placed on the Airline for letting these people continue through training or continue to fly the aircraft with passengers. Unacceptable.

:yeahthat: Well said.

 

[Flysher]

Here's something to ponder. If someone is hired at 300-400 hours TT, by the time they hit 135 mins they are in their second year at a regional. Here that means $35.38/hr, 2 weeks vacation (~4 weeks/1 month after trip touching takes effect), 14, 15, 16+ days off. Why take a pay cut, cut in benefits, and cut in QOL to go fly 135 freight just to be "cool"? It has nothing to do with it "being the end of the world".

As far as people running to the regionals at low time, there aren't many CFI jobs that can guarantee you a salary and benefits like the regionals do. There are significant advantages to getting out of the CFI work force and into a regional, IMO.

For the love of God, stop blaming the "pilots" that don't want to fly for your company and instead blame your management for not creating an attractive compensation package.

Way to put words in my mouth.

I wasn't turning this into a freight vs regional thread. I also never implied that I'm a "cool" for takin the freight route. Don't know where you got that. Also, Airnet just got a big pay raise for first year, base is now close to 30k.

And no matter what you say, I've run into countless guys who look at me and go "wtf???!?! why do you have close to 2000 hours and still fly a prop?" A guy i used to instruct with even told me that he wouldnt leave instructing until he had a JET job because he was tired of prop ##### (he had 400 hours at the time fyi). Ive had countless people tell me I'm wasting my time here, I need to get to xyz regional and build jet time, blah blah blah.... yea ill get right on it.

I wrote more but deleted it, I'm outta this thread.

 

[Tram]

And no matter what you say, I've run into countless guys who look at me and go "wtf???!?! why do you have close to 2000 hours and still fly a prop?"

Ive had countless people tell me I'm wasting my time here, I need to get to xyz regional and build jet time, blah blah blah.... yea ill get right on it.

I guess it just depends on what your personal goals are..

2,000TT and still flying a piston job and wishing to get to the majors, is wasting a little bit of time, but I've never seen you state your goals, so you may be doing what is perfectly correct for you..

 

[Tram]

I wonder if an airline would consider subsidizing a 135 operation to groom pilots before bringing them up - sort of like a farm club or triple-A ball before The Show.

EAL did that back in the day.. Sort-of.. They had a bunch of corporate birds they groomed their 200 hour wonders in..

 

[falconvalley]

Here's something to ponder. If someone is hired at 300-400 hours TT, by the time they hit 135 mins they are in their second year at a regional. Here that means $35.38/hr, 2 weeks vacation (~4 weeks/1 month after trip touching takes effect), 14, 15, 16+ days off. Why take a pay cut, cut in benefits, and cut in QOL to go fly 135 freight just to be "cool"? It has nothing to do with it "being the end of the world".

As far as people running to the regionals at low time, there aren't many CFI jobs that can guarantee you a salary and benefits like the regionals do. There are significant advantages to getting out of the CFI work force and into a regional, IMO.

For the love of God, stop blaming the "pilots" that don't want to fly for your company and instead blame your management for not creating an attractive compensation package.

Flysher's cool, man. He's as real as it gets!

 

[killbilly]

The problem with this is you need more hours (read: experience) to do 135 flying than you need in the regionals. On top of that, quite a few of the freight dawgs don't even want to consider the regionals. Why would you do all that then go where most people have a wet comm cert to get on? I am very proud of the fact that I didn't go to a regional, and hearing these stories makes me happy with my decision.

Other's mileage may vary...cue Wheelsup in 3....2.....1.....

I was sort of kicking the idea around like this.... - Billy's Regional Airline owns a share (or shares) of a couple 135 freight companies. Pilots who meet the 135 specs are eligible for some special hiring from BRA (heh) and they are only eligible at, say, 2,000TT and 100 multi (minimum) with demonstrated, sharp instrument skills.

Here's the key - pilots who do it this way, hire in at a typical PAY RATE commensurate with typical experience in the 121 world. For example, if it takes approximately two years for a low-timer to accrue 2000TT, then new FOs at BRA, who come from the 135 operation, get Year 3 pay scale. If it takes an average of 3 years to accrue 3,000TT, then those FOs, at 3000TT on the freight side, come in at Year 4. See how this works? The longer you stay in freight, honing your skills, the more of an asset you'll be to BRA.

I'm certain this is a monumentally flawed plan in a number of ways, but there are parts of it that make perfect sense to me. Where I see the savings is in retention among the flying workforce.

 

[JayAre]

It sucks, but how many guys have actually passed their interviews recently? The two guys to Allegiant and then the ACP to CAL mainline? CAL's taking Express Jet FO's up to mainline right now, but you had to be an Ameriflight ACP to get on with CAL?

I think it's stupid, but I'm not in the HR department.

Just had a 1900 driver in SLC go to CAL

 

[Bumblebee]

The scariest words a new commuter pilot will ever hear, "cleared for the visual".

I love those words :yar:

 

[Timbuff10]

So why are all these airlines exempt from providing more training for these guys that they don't already have? Airlines know they are not hiring 1500 hr guys that already have their ATP. The 80s and 90s are over, people hired at 500 hrs are going to need some training beyond what has traditionally been given at new hire training at airlines.

Why can't we change things so the airlines foot the bill for some of our training?

Just looking through my books on the ERJ here and I can't think of how another couple hundred or even a thousand more hours in a rentable GA aircraft would prepare me to deal with "continuous motoring" or "APUs shutting down at 104% rotor speed", not to mention operating at thirty seven thousand feet.

 

[Tram]

Why can't we change things so the airlines foot the bill for some of our training?

You'd think they would, considering, they KNOW what they are hiring..

On the other hand, if guys with 250 hours apply and wash out, well, they simply were not ready..

The amount of time one spends in the cockpit is not directly related to "being able to shut down an APU" or operating at FL370..

What is more important is guys flying and UNDERSTANDING what is happening.. 250 hour guys simply don't see the same things happening that a 2,500 hour guy would see..

It's all about what row you are in while flying.. Are you statting out in row 15 or row 5?

I was talking to my captain during OE.. He said it's horrible.. They get guys that simply can't even talk on the friggin radios.. GUys who have never flown through a REAL cloud..

All sorts of stories.. One of my OE guys was telling me he got a kid who couldn't talk on the radio to save his life and the CA was gettin' a little tired of having to do EVERYTHING and the kid copped and attitude and looked at him and said:

"WHAT? You expect me to talk like a PROFESSIONAL on the radios?"

He said all he could muster was a.. "Yes, son.. Yes, we do..."

 

[BobDDuck]

Just looking through my books on the ERJ here and I can't think of how another couple hundred or even a thousand more hours in a rentable GA aircraft would prepare me to deal with "continuous motoring" or "APUs shutting down at 104% rotor speed", not to mention operating at thirty seven thousand feet.

That is the sort of stuff most people learn in training. I didn't know ANY of that stuff before I started training here (other then what I'd read in the Turbine Pilots Manual) but it was all stuff that started to make sense after a few days of ground school. I don't think an airline (or pilot group) should expect somebody to know what that stuff is. I mean, maybe basic stuff like what an APU is and basic turbine theory, which is all information that can be learned by a little home study before class.

However, the issue here is BASIC flying skills. Sure, the jet (and even most turbo props) are a heck of a lot faster then a 172 or your garden varsity twin trainer, but that is what sim and the first trip or two of IOE is for. You should be getting up to speed then, not trying to learn new information. Transitioning to glass (if you've never seen it) can take a few hours, but a scan is scan and it shouldn't matter what you are looking at. When you move the thrust levers (or power levers or throttles) the same thing happens no mater what you are flying.

In the example I gave I don't know why he hasn't been sent home yet. The cynical side of me says that management knows about the problems, but it is cheaper for them to keep paying a check airman to baby sit instead of canceling the flight due to lack of FOs.

 

[wheelsup]

Way to put words in my mouth.

My post addressed one item, and that was that people were running to the regionals because flying props was "the end of the world" albeit at low time. I gave several reasons why going to, and then staying at, a regional would be beneficial, I NEVER said you were wasting your time, or called you prop trash, or suggested YOU go to a regional.

And seriously, who cares what others say about you? You are doing what you like to do, and you earn your living doing it. That sounds like a pretty good life to me.

Anyway, back on topic, a lot of the new hires are washing out at my company. I'm not sure how many they need to hire, we aren't really that short of FO's and once the new CA's hit the line in September/October time frame we'll be back up to "normal", so I think they can "afford" to wash people out and not have to cancel flights.