House votes today on 1500hr rule WITH college loophole

[LoadMasterC141]

Actually I drove an 18 wheeler to NYC 4 nights a week while attending an Ivy league school. My senior year, I was running the trucking company and still had a full course load. So yeah, I got the degree, 100% on my own, working my ass off for it. I think the fact that I worked my way through college is more definition of who I am than the degree. There were plenty of individuals I met that have the same degree, a much higher GPA, but are still clueless because they did not attain it on their own. When all you have to do is focus on studying, college is a cakewalk. Working and supporting yourself 100% is much harder.

I am obviously being stereotypical the same as others. I know plenty of very hard working kids who came from money and got a leg up. I also know plenty of kids that did not who used it as crutch not to work hard.

 

[3enginejock]

For every spoiled rich kid who went to college there is an ignorant lazy one who didn't bother. This stereotype cuts both ways.

This "spoiled rich kid" thing really gets me though. I'm really sorry you non-college folks didn't want to work hard and hold down a full time job while attending college like some of us. I don't know your past (and I honestly don't care at all, I'm sure you cured cancer, flew to the moon, and designed faster than light travel while the rest of us went to college), but you certainly don't know mine. If the only way you feel good about your high school diploma is to flame everyone who did put in the effort and money to earn a higher education, then I probably don't want to be sitting next to you some day anyways.

Because everyone who didnt go to college is ignorant and lazy... Everyone has their reasons for going or not going to college. Going to college does not make you any better than someone who did not it just means you can check a box and hold a piece of paper.

College will not make you a better pilot. Experiance will make you a better pilot. 1500 hours and an ATP minimum is a bit much. It will pretty much force everyone to go the CFI route and even then it can take years to get to 1500 hours while being a CFI. So lets say someone spends a couple years getting their ratings then they have to spend 2-3 more years as a CFI to get to 1500 hours... Unreal. And on top of that some are lobbying to require a degree. Nice lets add another 4 years and more money to that list.

 

[Ian_J]

Because everyone who didnt go to college is ignorant and lazy... Everyone has their reasons for going or not going to college. Going to college does not make you any better than someone who did not it just means you can check a box and hold a piece of paper.

College will not make you a better pilot. Experiance will make you a better pilot. 1500 hours and an ATP minimum is a bit much. It will pretty much force everyone to go the CFI route and even then it can take years to get to 1500 hours while being a CFI. So lets say someone spends a couple years getting their ratings then they have to spend 2-3 more years as a CFI to get to 1500 hours... Unreal. And on top of that some are lobbying to require a degree. Nice lets add another 4 years and more money to that list.

I'll agree it doesn't make you "better" than anyone else [at piloting.]

At any rate, here are some good reasons people may want to think about a four year degree.

THE ECONOMIC VALUE OF HIGHER EDUCATION

There is considerable support for the notion that the rate of return on investment in higher education is high enough to warrant the financial burden associated with pursuing a college degree. Though the earnings differential between college and high school graduates varies over time, college graduates, on average, earn more than high school graduates. According to the Census Bureau, over an adult's working life, high school graduates earn an average of $1.2 million; associate's degree holders earn about $1.6 million; and bachelor's degree holders earn about $2.1 million (Day and Newburger, 2002).​

These sizeable differences in lifetime earnings put the costs of college study in realistic perspective. Most students today-- about 80 percent of all students--enroll either in public 4-year colleges or in public 2-year colleges. According to the U.S. Department of Education report, Think College Early, a full-time student at a public 4-year college pays an average of $8,655 for in-state tuition, room and board (U.S. Dept. of Education, 2002). A full-time student in a public 2-year college pays an average of $1,359 per year in tuition (U.S. Dept. of Education, 2002).
These statistics support the contention that, though the cost of higher education is significant, given the earnings disparity that exists between those who earn a bachelor's degree and those who do not, the individual rate of return on investment in higher education is sufficiently high to warrant the cost.​

OTHER BENEFITS OF HIGHER EDUCATION

College graduates also enjoy benefits beyond increased income. A 1998 report published by the Institute for Higher Education Policy reviews the individual benefits that college graduates enjoy, including higher levels of saving, increased personal/professional mobility, improved quality of life for their offspring, better consumer decision making, and more hobbies and leisure activities (Institute for Higher Education Policy, 1998). According to a report published by the Carnegie Foundation, non-monetary individual benefits of higher education include the tendency for postsecondary students to become more open-minded, more cultured, more rational, more consistent and less authoritarian; these benefits are also passed along to succeeding generations (Rowley and Hurtado, 2002). Additionally, college attendance has been shown to "decrease prejudice, enhance knowledge of world affairs and enhance social status" while increasing economic and job security for those who earn bachelor's degrees (Ibid.)​

Research has also consistently shown a positive correlation between completion of higher education and good health, not only for oneself, but also for one's children. In fact, "parental schooling levels (after controlling for differences in earnings) are positively correlated with the health status of their children" and "increased schooling (and higher relative income) are correlated with lower mortality rates for given age brackets" (Cohn and Geske, 1992).



THE SOCIAL VALUE OF HIGHER EDUCATION



A number of studies have shown a high correlation between higher education and cultural and family values, and economic growth. According to Elchanan Cohn and Terry Geske (1992), there is the tendency for more highly educated women to spend more time with their children; these women tend to use this time to better prepare their children for the future. Cohn and Geske (1992) report that "college graduates appear to have a more optimistic view of their past and future personal progress."
Public benefits of attending college include increased tax revenues, greater workplace productivity, increased consumption, increased workforce flexibility, and decreased reliance on government financial support (Institute for Higher Education Policy, 1998).​

 

[Rocketman99]

Get your experience and learn how to be a real pilot BEFORE you set foot in an airliner. Sounds like a great idea to me. This should have been the rule a long time ago. I have enough things to worry about in the left seat to also have to babysit a 250 hr wonder in the right seat who may be able to fly the plane but doesn't have a clue.

As to having to have a degree, I'm indifferent on that one. It should certainly contribute to maturity level and professionalism, but isn't a guarantee.

 

[MFT1Air]

OK, I'm going to need a little help, as I don't know the specifics of the bill. So, it says a specific amount of college time can waiver actual flight time required? Is that what they are proposing. I don't believe it says a degree per se, but credit hours, correct?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

All it says is that the FAA Administrator can determine what sort of credit to apply to the hour requirements for certain college courses. I suppose it's possible that the Administrator could determine that a semester of private pilot ground school is equal to 800 hrs. It's completely up to his discretion. Not good. Senator Chuck Schumer is working to eliminate that loophole in the Senate version.

 

[derg]

I think the degree is very important but so is what you do with it. They are merely a key to open a door, not a magic bullet.

+1

 

[MFT1Air]

All it says is that the FAA Administrator can determine what sort of credit to apply to the hour requirements for certain college courses. I suppose it's possible that the Administrator could determine that a semester of private pilot ground school is equal to 800 hrs. It's completely up to his discretion. Not good. Senator Chuck Schumer is working to eliminate that loophole in the Senate version.

So, where's the con?

 

[mdspytko]

Have a degree, mixed on joke/not a joke. I got a degree in Computer Science. Ever since I was a child I have always felt a "tug" towards aviation. So even during college I was flying on the side and working. I won't say that I paid 100%, but I did work for a good part of it. It was not an online degree or anything like that. I did have parents who helped me tremendously though and without their help I don't know if I would have made it. I studied hard, did everything I could to do well, yet I still only passed with a 2.9.

I learned a lot while going to college. I did some partying, a lot of studying, and "grew up" the most during those years. When I graduated it was the time when everyone was outsourcing to India and so every entry level position wanted 3-5 years experience but I couldn't get it due to I was fresh out of college, typical catch 22. I have not worked in the Computer field at all and even if I wanted to try again (which I don't), I would have to go back to school to get caught up (hence my indecisiveness on Joke/Not Joke).

Now that being said, I think that a college degree, or even some college time, is worth it. Not just for the check-mark but because of how much you grow as a person in that time. It took me a while after college (I'm only 29) to look back and see how much I had changed over the years but a HUGE part was due to my time at the university. I see some of my friends from HS and see a huge difference in who they are and who I am (No I'm not saying I think I'm better, just different).

Does having a college degree automatically mean that you are a professional?? Thats a big Hell no. Are there people out there without any college degree whom I would consider a Professional? Without a doubt. But I think that if you looked collectively, there are more "Professionals" that have a degree than without, at least this has been my experience.

With this new whole 1500 hour rule coming into play (I know, other forum) let me just say that I think that that is not an unfair rule (and I currently only have 1100TT). I had finished up my training in July of '08 and had just missed "the hiring boom." At the time, I would have been one of those wet commercial pilots flying an RJ had I been given the chance. I didn't want to instruct. I think that a lot of instructors are that way. For those instructors out there, I think you'll agree, that I have learned SO MUCH during this time that i have been teaching. Am I glad that I was "forced" to teach? Absolutely, without a doubt, and I am glad that it has worked out this way.

Part of the definition of a Professional (FOI stuff) is one who is always learning to better himself. So if people have to teach just so that they can get their 1500 hours and move on, so what?? I don't care. You learn a lot having these kids trying to kill you on a daily basis. Teaching aerodynamics, wx, radio (and radio courtesy/etiquette), and everything else that is involved over and over again might suck, but you gain such an understanding that it is invaluable.

Now I am ready to move on and gain experience on other aircraft besides Cessnas and Light Twins. Maybe 1500 is a "smidge" high for TT Requirements. I definitely believe that 250 TT is too low. Maybe more appropriate would be 1000TT. But in the grand scheme of things, you can't have too much experience in this industry and 1000 or 1500 TT is not unreasonable.

I'm sorry for the long post/rant. These are obviously just my humble opinions and I wanted to give a little bit of a background on me. This post will be posted on both threads, "Poll: College degree" and "House votes today on 1500hr rule WITH college loophole" as I think that this post qualifies for both so I apologize if you read it twice.

Mike

 

[zmiller4]

So, where's the con?

The con is this:

All it says is that the FAA Administrator can determine what sort of credit to apply to the hour requirements for certain college courses. I suppose it's possible that the Administrator could determine that a semester of private pilot ground school is equal to 800 hrs. It's completely up to his discretion. Not good. Senator Chuck Schumer is working to eliminate that loophole in the Senate version.

It is a good thing to try to establish some standards for airline pilots. It's a bad thing to insert provisions into a bill weakening it because the Yale of the Skies is in your district.

 

[derg]

Yale of the skies, I love it!

I went to ERAU with a 4 in AP Calculus, but then 4 1/2 years later, I needed a calculator for basic math.

 

[MFT1Air]

All it says is that the FAA Administrator can determine what sort of credit to apply to the hour requirements for certain college courses. I suppose it's possible that the Administrator could determine that a semester of private pilot ground school is equal to 800 hrs. It's completely up to his discretion. Not good. Senator Chuck Schumer is working to eliminate that loophole in the Senate version.

. . .but we truly have to believe that specific example mentioned above is ludicrious. As is possible, no rational "checks and balances" especially in the FAA administration is going to be so liberal.

I need something a little more substantive and realistic.

Think CLEP tests. . .I'll track you better from that aspect. After all, you take tests for your private, instrument, commercial, and ATP, right? From a CLEP test analogy, the most you'd receive is 3 maybe four semester hours. No one assumes education replaces practical flying experience. If anything classes, where a simulator was used might count, but simply watching a video or attending a lecture over the course of 5 months? I have reservations about the FAA taking that course of action.

Too early to assume that course of action.

 

[rjmore]

The problem IMHO is not the 250 hour wonder in the right seat. It is the 1500 hour wonder Captain that only has one season of winter weather under their belt.

When I had inexperienced FOs I knew I could help them along and get the experience they lacked. However, those folks upgraded as soon as they had the seniority and the ATP requirements because we all left. Inexperience in the right seat is nothing new. However, in the past you always had an experienced Captain in the left seat. I would rather see more requirements to be a Captain than to be hired as an FO. Now you get inexperience in the left AND right seats and bad things happen.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It's a bad thing to insert provisions into a bill weakening it because the Yale of the Skies is in your district.

What do you expect from a Republican? The sooner pilots realize that the Republicans are out for the corporate interests and not for labor, the sooner we'll start to get this profession out of the gutter. Thank God for Chuck Schumer in the Senate.

 

[mshunter]

9 years of working doesn't replace college, and college doesn't replace 9 years of working. They are two entirely different things teaching you entirely different kinds of knowledge.

I don't understand this "exemption" thing. I've said that this bill encouraging 4 year degrees is a good thing, that it helps raise the profession to the level of other professions. And a couple of people got pissy about it.

So yeah..I stumbled onto your rant on another forum and figured out why you're so pissy. We're all entitled to our opinions, though you may be surprised to hear how many people had to work their asses off to get through college. A college degree isn't proof that someone's mommy and daddy wrote a fat check so their kid could buy their way into the airline industry...as you clearly believe.

I personally think, and have been told by HR people that the only reason why they want to see a College Diploma is because you have seen something through to completion. I have multiple certs. (outside of aviation) that should account for something. Lets face it, all adegree is in most cases is studying a field that you want to persue. And most people don't even use it. Take pilots for example, it doesn't matter if your degree is in Plant Science, it matters that you have a piece of paper that shows you spent around 4 years at something. The certificatins I have earned, the last one I earned, took me just shy of eight years to get, and in this industry, it accounts for nothing. I just hope I can find a job that will allow me to attend college on my own time, and still get that, what I consider "artificially" coveted degree, since it doesn't really matter what it's in. Mabey I'll persue a degree in Plant Science just to be a smart guy.


Edit: Either the parents pick up the tab, or you finance, or it takes 15 years. I don't see any other options. And IMO, anyone with a degree is no smarter, better off than someone with out.

 

[MikeD]

What do you expect from a Republican? The sooner pilots realize that the Republicans are out for the corporate interests and not for labor, the sooner we'll start to get this profession out of the gutter. Thank God for Chuck Schumer in the Senate.

I don't know. I don't think Schumer is any more a savior than, for example, Orrin Hatch would be. And if you really think the Dems are out for labor in the big scheme of things, I think you might be surprised. Dems may not, by nature, be out for corporate interests as a whole; but both Repubs as well as Dems are indeed out for one thing in common: themselves. Thats what they do as politicians.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I don't know. I don't think Schumer is any more a savior than, for example, Orrin Hatch would be. And if you really think the Dems are out for labor in the big scheme of things, I think you might be surprised. Dems may not, by nature, be out for corporate interests as a whole; but both Repubs as well as Dems are indeed out for one thing in common: themselves. Thats what they do as politicians.

Of course, but you have to look at where their bread is buttered. Republicans get their money from corporate interests, so that's who they favor. Democrats get their money from trial lawyers and organized labor, so that's who they favor. It's a screwed up system, but if you play it right, you can make it work. Do any of them really care for the causes they support? I'm sure some do, but most of them are just following the money. That's ok as long as we're smart enough to play the game. Too many pilots play the game on the wrong side, though.

 

[zmiller4]

Yale of the skies, I love it!

I went to ERAU with a 4 in AP Calculus, but then 4 1/2 years later, I needed a calculator for basic math.

It's a pilot thing. I was smart in college but I think the brain atrophies when the only things you have to learn are backup hydraulic pump logic and low visibility takeoff requirements.

No one assumes education replaces practical flying experience.

This bill does.

(d) Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement.

 

[granlistillo]

What do you expect from a Republican? The sooner pilots realize that the Republicans are out for the corporate interests and not for labor, the sooner we'll start to get this profession out of the gutter. Thank God for Chuck Schumer in the Senate.

This statement seems a little disigenuous. The key in this, as it is in most of these riders, amendments are based on constituents desires back in the home district. It is obvious, that a large entity would have alot of pull on the congressman from that district no matter what party they are from.

 

[Ian_J]

Edit: Either the parents pick up the tab, or you finance, or it takes 15 years. I don't see any other options. And IMO, anyone with a degree is no smarter, better off than someone with out.

I see in your profile you live in SOCAL, so I picked Cal State as an example.

Cal State in-state tuition for one year: $3078.

Or more realistically, with tuition, books, and fees it would cost you $6227 a year.

Part time employees of the school get two classes per term for free.

Working part time as a pizza deliverer would pay for this.

The total cost for 4 years is... $24,908... for parents that's just over $100/ mo stuffed in a mattress for 18 years. Or, more realistically - $55/ month invested in a growth mutual fund averaging just 8%.

This is what really gets me when people criticize people when their parents paid for their college, or assume mommy and daddy are rich. Sometimes they are (big deal), but most likely, many just save a little every month.

I don't see any other options.

For your individual case, you may be right. I understand you took out a flight training loan for ATP... I assume the monthly payments are pretty high and aren't negotiable. As you can see... being in a large amount of debt can really restrict your freedom.

Pretending you didn't take that loan out, you'd have plenty of options to come up with six grand a year for four years.