House votes today on 1500hr rule WITH college loophole

I'm touched by the naivete here, but one night of bar tab on the loser says the next time the regionals hire, wages at lets say Eagle are within 10% of current levels (adjusted for inflation). Takers? I'm thirsty, I warn you.
 
Why does everyone have to be forced down the same path?


Getting a degree does not make you a better pilot nor a better person. It just means you were able to get through 4 years of college and earned a piece of paper for your trouble.

Spoken like someone without a college degree......
 
It is also a very effective way to weed through a stack of resumes. Not getting a degree will handicap you in life. I have never received a job yet that absolutely 100% required a degree to be hired but I guarantee that having the degree helped me get called for the interview and hired.
 
That's crap!

I know an instructor that has been instructing for over 3 years that doesn't have ATP mins

Then your buddy is full of fail. I was a CFI from 89 to 92, during the Gulf War Recession, and I logged 1200+ hours AND got my ATP...and NOBODY slacks more than me....I even took a stage check pilot gig to fly LESS.

Everybody has to freekin' man up over this thing. It's the circle of life...

Richman
 
Yes I am being sarcastic, however, many of my classmates hate this. They are all pissed because now they will have to CFI more instead of going right into an RJ.

We had a 15min in-class discussion over this and I was the only one that supported it. I tried to tell them this will eliminate anyone buying their way into the industry with a 90 day 0 to hero program and there will be less pilots going into the business so it could help drive pay up but they wouldn't hear it.

Oh and they were concerned because regionals wouldn't be able to afford paying for more pilots (fatigue rules) or increasing wages.
 
Yes I am being sarcastic, however, many of my classmates hate this. They are all pissed because now they will have to CFI more instead of going right into an RJ.

We had a 15min in-class discussion over this and I was the only one that supported it. I tried to tell them this will eliminate anyone buying their way into the industry with a 90 day 0 to hero program and there will be less pilots going into the business so it could help drive pay up but they wouldn't hear it.

Oh and they were concerned because regionals wouldn't be able to afford paying for more pilots (fatigue rules) or increasing wages.
Then your entire class FAILS (except you of course).
 
Not getting a degree will handicap you in life.

I very much disagree. Believing in crap like this will be the biggest handicap in your life. Attempting to obtain a higher education and a specialized skill (flying) has been almost a nightmare at times for my situation.

Trust me. Im doing WAY better than some shmuck who thinks a degree is their path to prosperity. I really wish I had never taken out a single college class. To think of the possibilities had I not listened to people like you who think a college degree is the holy grail.
 
Attempting to obtain a higher education

I take that back. "Obtaining a piece of paper from an institution that says you have learned something" is what I was getting at. Education at all levels is the key to success. But there are many ways to do it. Some are better than others.
 
I very much disagree. Believing in crap like this will be the biggest handicap in your life. Attempting to obtain a higher education and a specialized skill (flying) has been almost a nightmare at times for my situation.

Trust me. Im doing WAY better than some shmuck who thinks a degree is their path to prosperity. I really wish I had never taken out a single college class. To think of the possibilities had I not listened to people like you who think a college degree is the holy grail.

Spoken like someone without a college degree......
x2

I never said a college degree is the holy grail and anyone who has to rely on there degree alone is a tool in my book. Now with that said, A degree is going to do nothing but help you and often times you may not even be aware of it when it is happening. You get a call for an interview... do you think having the degree listed on your resume helped at all? All other qualifications being equal and I guarantee that degree is getting you the call over the other applicant.
 
I very much disagree. Believing in crap like this will be the biggest handicap in your life. Attempting to obtain a higher education and a specialized skill (flying) has been almost a nightmare at times for my situation.

Trust me. Im doing WAY better than some shmuck who thinks a degree is their path to prosperity. I really wish I had never taken out a single college class. To think of the possibilities had I not listened to people like you who think a college degree is the holy grail.

HOLY GRAIL - (I betcha that one <literature/mythology/Monty Python cinema> college class you DID take allowed you to make that Holy Grail comparison. ;) and actually know what it means. :sarcasm:)

Reading is fundamental; learning is cool.
 
HOLY GRAIL - (I betcha that one <literature/mythology/Monty Python cinema> college class you DID take allowed you to make that Holy Grail comparison. ;) and actually know what it means. :sarcasm:)

Monty Python for sure.



"Not getting a degree will handicap you in life."


You did say this right? Very wrong in my book.
 
I wouldn't trade my degree for a winning lottery ticket. That said, it hardly made me a better pilot, and I have lots of friends who never bothered. If you want a degree, get one. If you don't, don't. The plane doesn't care.
 
Monty Python for sure.



"Not getting a degree will handicap you in life."


You did say this right? Very wrong in my book.

Actually no, I didn't. . .handicap would not have been the word I would have used. . ."limits" would have been my choice.
 
In my opinion here is what should be considered as fact regarding this well done debate:

What a College Degree will NOT do for you:


  • Make you more intelligent - It will educate you certainly, but knowledge is not the same as intelligence. There are highly educated idiots out there, some even pilots, in vast numbers. And there are many many ignorant and uneducated people that are ten times more intelligent then the average college grad visa verse etc etc etc...

  • Make you a better pilot - Education on a collegiate level is not relative to any innate ability with a stick and rudder or attention to detail, situational awareness etc. You either have it or you don't. Whether you are a qualified working pilot with a degree is irrelevant when talking about skills that are directly related to one's cognitive abilities. Many pilots in the 121 biz today quite frankly suck (thankfully they are the minority). They have poor stick and rudder skills and poor situational awareness. And many of these guys are college grads with well in excess of 10,000 hours. Education and leaned skill can bring anyone of average intelligence or better up to a level of proficiency to make them safe and competent. But beyond that natural ability comes into play to really excel as an aviator insofar as skill.

  • Enhance your professionalism - If you believe this you are a tool..Period! Professionalism can be both innate and learned. But it always hinges on the individual's desire to be so. I know High School dropouts with GED's flying today that are ten times more professional then some with college degrees. Professionalism is directly correlated to maturity and attitude desire, not education level.

  • AUTOMATICALLY give you an advantage when applying for a pilot position - In a job market, whether in a hiring boom or with mass furloughs, that depends more on internal contacts, word of mouth, and respected recommendations a college degree is more often than not irrelevant. Flight experience, type experience, personality, professionalism and reputation all trump a college degree regardless of the state of the job market. Listed degree requirements or preferences even at legacy carriers can be overcome, or waived in lieu of the above traits.
What a College Degree will do for you:

  • Give you a statistical advantage towards material success in life - Pilots without degrees, such as myself, are at a stark disadvantage when it comes to the probability of lifetime material success then those with degrees for one simple reason. If unable to continue with a career as a pilot for any number of reasons, the job market for folks such as me is very limited and nearly always less lucrative.

  • Give you a resume vs. resume advantage for a pilot position - When competing for an open pilot job where internal recommendations are not a factor against others with the same level of experience, which is almost never, even at the legacy's, you will certainly have a one up over a degree-less pilot.

  • Enables you to further your career beyond the cockpit - At the airlines and fortune 500 corporate flight departments the likelihood of promotion into a management position, if desired, is significantly reduced for those without a college degree.

  • Gives you a broader understanding of the world - Knowledge is power and even for those who are intellectually challenged a college education can open doors and opportunities that would otherwise go unnoticed. Having a knowledge base that even a 2 year degree will bring to the table can give you an advantage in many different arenas both socially and professionally.
So in conclusion this debate is silly as the facts, as I see them, are obvious. A college degree is nothing but a positive thing and everyone capable of earning one should get one. I doubt you can find anyone my age or older without a degree that does not wish they had earned one. But we must not count out an individual's, without a degree, ability for self-education, drive, resourcefulness and creativity when it comes to becoming successful in life as a pilot or otherwise. To do so would be arrogant. Does a degree give one an advantage? Of course! But lack of one can make success despite that fact all the more satisfying as in many instances it clearly takes much more effort to become so. But that does not detract for the sense of pride that earning a degree can bring. As for me, at the age of 40, I'm very seriously thinking of going back to school and finishing my degree.

So for prospective professional pilots: Go to college! Life will be easier! But if you hate school and just want to fly...Go for it! Presently a lack of degree will not keep you out of the cockpit! I doubt it will ever be so, but there is always the possibility that the future could bring legislation or industry standards to the point where even contacts and recommendations will not help you. We are not there today, in my opinion, not even close. But things do seem to be trending in that direction so consider that when considering this issue.

As far as the topic at hand goes, the college loophole in my opinion will have little to do with actual safety or job ability. When talking about a difference of maybe a few hundred hours at most with pilots that have in all likelihood less than 2000 hours tt, in a 121 environment it's irrelevant. I have just over 2000 tt and I am still learning a great deal nearly every day. My general knowledge, skill level etc. is exceedingly deficit to those with over 5000 tt. Personally I consider myself low-time. Even with 1500 of that 2000 in a 121 cockpit I have a long way to go until I am even ready for upgrade. So, if they wanna give the college boys and girls a little break for being smart enough to go to college, I say let them.
 
The problem IMHO is not the 250 hour wonder in the right seat. It is the 1500 hour wonder Captain that only has one season of winter weather under their belt.

When I had inexperienced FOs I knew I could help them along and get the experience they lacked. However, those folks upgraded as soon as they had the seniority and the ATP requirements because we all left. Inexperience in the right seat is nothing new. However, in the past you always had an experienced Captain in the left seat. I would rather see more requirements to be a Captain than to be hired as an FO. Now you get inexperience in the left AND right seats and bad things happen.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner. However if you have to have 1500 hours just to get in the door that will imply higher time, better experienced captains.

On a side note hopefully this will make people earn something and Learn something along the way. I still fly with FO's that talk about "the upgrade" even though our company is going backwards and furloughing. Maybe being forced to learn something before people come to an airline will give them perspective of the industry and themselves instead of being so myopic.
 
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