House, Senate pass 1500 rule, Rest rules, and more

[aloft]

I am wondering the same thing Can Colgan continue hiring pilots with less than 1,500 hours after the bill is signed into law or does the 36 months only apply to current 121 pilots?

That provision of the law won't take effect for 36 months after it's signed. At which point it will apply to everyone, not just Colgan/Mesaba.

To all of those who had the dream of flying professionally, I'm sorry but that dream has now just gotten allot farther from us.

Oh please. You have three years before the 1500 hour requirement takes effect.

I predict a great deal of hiring will occur just after Age 65 retirements start to happen, and just before the 1500 hour requirement kicks in. Might even see hiring mins as low as we saw them in 2007-08 before the supply of low-time, willing-to-fly-for-peanuts pilots is cut off by the new rule.

Bring it on, I say.

 

[dr650]

That provision of the law won't take effect for 36 months after it's signed. At which point it will apply to everyone, not just Colgan/Mesaba.

So according to the bill if a pilot is hired with say 500 hours 35 months from the time the bill is signed he will not be terminated in a month? kinda of a grandfathered in type thing?

 

[aloft]

One would think.

 

[PGT]

I think it's funny how pilots think they are entitled to a 121 job with less than 1500 hours just because of the recent hiring wave; which there was never a shortage of pilots, just a shortage of pilots with experience wanting to work for crap pay.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You know, the Mormons make the same argument regarding young men who go off to be missionaries for their church, how much more mature they all are when they come back. Nevermind that most people go through the same maturation in those same first few years of adulthood, missionary or not. It happens whether you're in college, or the Army, or in the workforce, or on a church mission. It still happens, regardless of which path you take. Same goes for flying.

But just like a white person will never know what it's like to be black, you'll never know whether it was CFIing that made the difference or not; you only know the path you took. Because you're a CFI, you don't understand how much I learned in those 1000+ hours of non-CFIing--yet, arrogantly, you think you do.

In psychology, that's called egocentrism.

I agree with your premise about egocentrism and everyone thinking their way of maturing is the best, but I think you're missing the point. The point is that no matter how someone matures in aviation, it shouldn't be happening while that person has 50+ people sitting behind them who expect to have pilots at the controls who have already matured in their chosen profession. Whether you CFI, fly pipeline patrol, fly 135 cargo, etc., it doesn't matter, but you you shouldn't have a bunch of people's lives in your hands before you're ready.

To all of those who had the dream of flying professionally, I'm sorry but that dream has now just gotten allot farther from us.

Good. Becoming an airline pilot should be attainable, but not easy. You can still do it, but like becoming a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, it's going to take you some time and effort rather than a big check and 90 days of your time.

 

[aloft]

I agree with your premise about egocentrism and everyone thinking their way of maturing is the best, but I think you're missing the point. The point is that no matter how someone matures in aviation, it shouldn't be happening while that person has 50+ people sitting behind them who expect to have pilots at the controls who have already matured in their chosen profession. Whether you CFI, fly pipeline patrol, fly 135 cargo, etc., it doesn't matter, but you you shouldn't have a bunch of people's lives in your hands before you're ready.

Nope, we're in total agreement. For once.

 

[tjvpa28]

Becoming an airline pilot should be attainable, but not easy. You can still do it, but like becoming a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, it's going to take you some time and effort rather than a big check and 90 days of your time.

:clap:

 

[mooneyguy]

For all you CFIs, how many hours in icing conditions did you accrue while CFIing, and how many tailplane stall recoveries did you perform in that time?

I'm going to wager that for the vast majority of you, the answers are zero and zero.

I'm almost embarrassed to say I had NEVER heard of a tailplane stall when 3407 happened. Know one from PPL-MEI had ever even mentioned it to me.

We keep talking about all these stalls as a CFI's and how maybe the 3407 ca may have benefited from them. Personally I think the way we teach stalls is useless! What good does it do to have students who know how to pull pwr to 1700, flaps 30, power out, hold it, push the nose over full, power, flaps up. then we give the a cookie if they held their heading, didn't climb and had only min alt loss...so what did you learn? how to do a Maneuver! if you get into a stall at 500 agl, chances are its all over. We should be focusing on what gets us into a stall and how to react BEFORE the stall ever happens!

we talk about inexperience of the crew, that's fine, maybe they were, or maybe they were fatigued. I think until the excrement hits the fan, you really don't know what YOU will do in an emergency situation! this guy had training, as did the FO. I think when it hit the fan they both screwed up. probably had to do more with who they were then how much training they had.

again my take on 3407 is that it was a series of events. The two pilots being paired together. The training colgan gave (maybe, i don't know). The type of plane, and the type of WX? Commuting across 4 times zones to work. we could compile a pretty good list I'm sure. in the end it comes down to ADM, and we still train people for maneuvers and rote knowledge.

 

[wrxpilot]

Personally I think the way we teach stalls is useless! What good does it do to have students who know how to pull pwr to 1700, flaps 30, power out, hold it, push the nose over full, power, flaps up. then we give the a cookie if they held their heading, didn't climb and had only min alt loss...so what did you learn? how to do a Maneuver!

I think the FAA actually agrees with that, which is why they've been pushing the FITS methodology of incorporating training with real world scenarios. I think any good CFI will go beyond the basic PTS requirements for most subjects, including stall prevention, recognition, and recovery. For example, I used to take my PPL students through various types of stalls, up to and including incipient spins. We would also go through various scenarios, such as turning stalls, departure stalls during a distraction, etc. Quite frankly, I always felt that I would be seriously shortchanging the student if I just taught the basic PTS standards/checkride. What a waste that would be...

If you get into a stall at 500 agl, chances are its all over. We should be focusing on what gets us into a stall and how to react BEFORE the stall ever happens!

Actually, that's what the FAA has been preaching for awhile now.

 

[mooneyguy]

I think the FAA actually agrees with that, which is why they've been pushing the FITS methodology of incorporating training with real world scenarios. I think any good CFI will go beyond the basic PTS requirements for most subjects, including stall prevention, recognition, and recovery. For example, I used to take my PPL students through various types of stalls, up to and including incipient spins. We would also go through various scenarios, such as turning stalls, departure stalls during a distraction, etc. Quite frankly, I always felt that I would be seriously shortchanging the student if I just taught the basic PTS standards/checkride. What a waste that would be...

Actually, that's what the FAA has been preaching for awhile now.

I agree. My part 61 students get a lot more training then what the pts says. the 141, that's a little more difficult. Because you only have X amount of time and are to only train on X subject on any particular lesson. I still do my best to add to the training, so the student comes out with more then PTS knowledge.

 

[mporio101]

TuckNTruck

When I got hired, it wasn't going to be with less than 1500 hours. Getting hired in the us with less than ATP mins is not the standard. The dream of flying is right where it should be, and it should be hard to get to a 121 gig.

Hey Tuck where was inflation, was it post the 2nd greatest economic recession and how much did you pay for flight training or did other peoples tax dollars pay for it when you worked so hard to get your 121 gig??. To say that it should be hard to get a gig is ridiculous especially now, because if you haven't noticed its not 250 hr pilots which are killing people left and right ( see my first post) If you are qualified then you are qualified and should not be punished because some pissed off relatives and a Congress with no teeth want to look great for their constituents. If you cant see through that smokescreen then you really are stuck in the stoneage.

 

[subpilot]

TuckNTruck

Hey Tuck where was inflation, was it post the 2nd greatest economic recession and how much did you pay for flight training or did other peoples tax dollars pay for it when you worked so hard to get your 121 gig??. To say that it should be hard to get a gig is ridiculous especially now, because if you haven't noticed its not 250 hr pilots which are killing people left and right ( see my first post) If you are qualified then you are qualified and should not be punished because some pissed off relatives and a Congress with no teeth want to look great for their constituents. If you cant see through that smokescreen then you really are stuck in the stoneage.

so says the low time pilot with a grand total of 2 post on JC.

 

[wrxpilot]

TuckNTruck

Hey Tuck where was inflation, was it post the 2nd greatest economic recession and how much did you pay for flight training or did other peoples tax dollars pay for it when you worked so hard to get your 121 gig??. To say that it should be hard to get a gig is ridiculous especially now, because if you haven't noticed its not 250 hr pilots which are killing people left and right ( see my first post) If you are qualified then you are qualified and should not be punished because some pissed off relatives and a Congress with no teeth want to look great for their constituents. If you cant see through that smokescreen then you really are stuck in the stoneage.

At this stage, you simply don't know what you don't know. Assuming your flight time is correct - you have quite a bit to learn and experience before knowing who is and is not qualified for a 121 job.

I passed my CSEL around 260 hrs, and my CMEL around 265. I cannot imagine myself being a productive crew member in an airliner at that time, as I still had so much more to learn. I didn't realize it then, of course, but now I know I was still figuring out how to fly a single engine airplane correctly at 120 kts (although at the time, I thought I was pretty good!).

I think we were very lucky that during the last hiring spree, these low time newbies were being paired with high time professionals that had been in the industry for long periods of time. There simply weren't that many pairings of CA Renslows and FO Shaws. Had we not experienced an economic downturn when we did, effectively slamming the door on hiring, we may have seen a very bleak safety record as these low timers with weak backgrounds were upgraded and paired with 250 hour wonders.

We've all had to work very hard for our training, regardless of our background. I had to make huge sacrifices, as most of us in professional aviation have had to do. We understand the frustration of working through your ratings, but you're not owed anything... Put in the time, and your own opportunities will come along.

I'd also caution you to watch yourself when you speak of "other peoples tax money" paying for certain pilots flight training. It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder regarding pilots with a military background. Those guys and girls earned every dime of that money, doing something way beyond what most of us have ever done.

 

[Hernandezcfi]

I'd also caution you to watch yourself when you speak of "other peoples tax money" paying for certain pilots flight training. It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder regarding pilots with a military background. Those guys and girls earned every dime of that money, doing something way beyond what most of us have ever done.

I second that!

 

[Firebird2XC]

Nothing to do with the skill of the FO. I thought that's why he wasn't in command.

I'm curious....how did they pass a 121 checkride?

So, realistically congress has done nothing but give lip service which is all they really know how to do. Because if the pilot mills get an hour exception because they are such wonderful pilot training institutions of Higher education we still end up with a 250 0-hero, same as before! seems the only difference is the guy who decides to go old skool and do it at mom and pop fbo pays his dues along the way one lesson at a time is the only one who has to continue working himself through the next 1500 hours.

in all seriousness, congratulation for being a part of something that appears to have succeeded.:clap: I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just don't see the same out come as you do.

Exactly- nothing to do with the skill of the FO. That's my point. Everybody assumes that because airliners aren't raining from the skies that FOs are doing just fine. The end reality is that a good number were apparently lead balloons and the Captain was carrying them.

How did these types pass 121 check rides? They teach the test, and then they have a canned response to the different situations given. Steep turns? 4 degrees nose up nails the pitch attitude- everything else can vary a bit, but as long as you keep the bank angle relatively stable but nail 4 degrees nose up, you're like a rock. A simulator is not an airplane. In the Beech 1900D, the airplane didn't land anything at all like the real airplane. The Embraer does a passable representation. Still not really spot on. In 121 programs, they 'teach the test'. They're not there to really find out what you can do- they're there to achieve a canned set of responses with minimal time and cost. Easy to fake the funk that way. On the line, in the real world, with real airplanes, varying weight, real weather, and in the NAS system.. big difference. Throw in two or three days of flying on a trip with some fatigue and some newhires out there were just melting down.

As for the 'puppy mill' exception, well, things aren't finalized yet. I can tell you now that flight schools will be different, though. If academic classroom time is required to offset hours, or a boatload of hours, the cost structure and operational process will change. The training outlook will change.

Some places are already predicting a pilot shortage. I know, I know, same old saw- but the ramifications are already being noted. It's not everything we hoped it would be, but it's a step. We're not sure where that footstep will fall- so let's wait and see before we call it a loss.

Bloomberg News on the pilot shortage concept:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...irlines-as-u-s-tightens-training-rules-p.html

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You guys are forgetting something about the academic time being used to reduce the 1,500 hours. The legislation doesn't just say you need 1,500 hours, it says you must have an ATP certificate. In order to get an ATP, the current regs say you need 1,500 hours. So, for academic time to be used to substitute, the administrator will have to actually reduce the hour requirements for getting an ATP. A long-standing unwritten rule of the FAA is that they don't change a regulation unless it improves safety. I think the Administrator, a pilot and a former ALPA President, no less, will find it difficult to see reducing the hour requirements in favor of "academic time" to be an enhancement to safety.

I don't think he'll allow the academic substitute, even though the legislation allows for it.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Wow thats allot of nonsense from a forum.

First off this whole bill is an overreaction to incidents unrelated strictly to F/O time but is more a question of 1. Regional Pilot Training and 2. Fatigue.

To those who helped push through this legislation I'm sorry for your loss but you are misguided and are only seeking revenge and closure but not to provide a real solution which I already stated above.
Simply put there have been Airline accidents before relating to changes in FAA rules but never something as over reactionary as this.

To all of those who had the dream of flying professionally, I'm sorry but that dream has now just gotten allot farther from us.

Love the ad hominem. Great way to make an entry.

Loved the hate mail in my PMs too. Classy. To answer your question, I'm very much a pilot.

A few bullets from my resume:
I've got about 3000 hours. Mostly in turbine equipment. I've worked for two airlines and been through two airline 121 training programs therein- there were notable differences in the two. I've flown a turboprop and a jet. One of those airlines was Colgan Air- where it was often muttered that the way they did business was just asking for an accident. Gee.

I've also flown several makes of light airplanes. In addition to that, I served as a non-pilot crewmember for about 900 hours in UH-60 Blackhawks doing everything from assisting with navigation and radio communication to CPR to armed security.

So yes, I'm a pilot, and your self-interest and naivete is showing in the last line of your quoted post above. Frankly, if you can't accumulate 1500 hours in three years, you're not trying very hard.

There are TONS of great jobs that don't require this minimum. Not 121, mind you, but there's more to life than 121 flying.

Not to mention, given the current state of the industry, you'd likely not be getting a 121 job with less that 1000 hours minimum anyhow, if even that low. There are many, many pilots on the street with 121 experience and thousands of hours. You're competing with them first- not just the regulations.

Your stance is not only short-sighted and ignorant, it's disrespectful. You're not going to learn anything with attitude. Not to mention- there are many people here who lost friends of loved ones or at least knew somebody on Colgan 3407. To mutter condolences and then slam them in the same breath for misguided 'seeking revenge' type behavior is disrespectful, callous, and rude.

If you'd like to try again, more intelligently, please be my guest. But not before you've stopped with your hissy-fit. If this is the attitude you'd bring to a flight deck, your total time is the least of your problems.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

You guys are forgetting something about the academic time being used to reduce the 1,500 hours. The legislation doesn't just say you need 1,500 hours, it says you must have an ATP certificate. In order to get an ATP, the current regs say you need 1,500 hours. So, for academic time to be used to substitute, the administrator will have to actually reduce the hour requirements for getting an ATP. A long-standing unwritten rule of the FAA is that they don't change a regulation unless it improves safety. I think the Administrator, a pilot and a former ALPA President, no less, will find it difficult to see reducing the hour requirements in favor of "academic time" to be an enhancement to safety.

I don't think he'll allow the academic substitute, even though the legislation allows for it.

I did notice this, in fact. But I just saw it from the ICAO standpoint where they probably wouldn't like us to start varying wildly from what our ATP is to what an ICAO ATP should be considering we're, like, in ICAO. Good point. Thanks.

 

[Firebird2XC]

You guys are forgetting something about the academic time being used to reduce the 1,500 hours. The legislation doesn't just say you need 1,500 hours, it says you must have an ATP certificate. In order to get an ATP, the current regs say you need 1,500 hours. So, for academic time to be used to substitute, the administrator will have to actually reduce the hour requirements for getting an ATP. A long-standing unwritten rule of the FAA is that they don't change a regulation unless it improves safety. I think the Administrator, a pilot and a former ALPA President, no less, will find it difficult to see reducing the hour requirements in favor of "academic time" to be an enhancement to safety.

I don't think he'll allow the academic substitute, even though the legislation allows for it.

You know, I honestly hadn't considered that. Good point! Perhaps the concept isn't as 'Riddled' with holes as it appears.



(pun intentional- couldn't resist. )

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

TuckNTruck

Hey Tuck where was inflation, was it post the 2nd greatest economic recession and how much did you pay for flight training or did other peoples tax dollars pay for it when you worked so hard to get your 121 gig??. To say that it should be hard to get a gig is ridiculous especially now, because if you haven't noticed its not 250 hr pilots which are killing people left and right ( see my first post) If you are qualified then you are qualified and should not be punished because some pissed off relatives and a Congress with no teeth want to look great for their constituents. If you cant see through that smokescreen then you really are stuck in the stoneage.

Gonna go ahead and put it out there... Based off what I read here, you're not qualified. Once again, it's not the 1500 hours that mean anything. It's what you learned, how you matured, and how you grew as a person and pilot during those 1500 hours that counts.
I worked my ass off working two jobs to pay for my flight training thank you very much. I also worked hard for my engineering degree. I held multiple jobs, got scholarships, and did it without taking out huge loans. I also pay my taxes, and have absolutly no issue what so ever about paying a serving member of our military. They have earned it.

Maybe, just maybe you should look and notice that nearly EVERY single airline pilot out there says that having to get more experience first is a good thing. I don't see many 121 guys out there saying 250 hour pilots is a good idea.

Thirdly, I'll once again refer to the often discussed " how to get a job on jc" networking works better when you don't accuse it's members of being in the stoneage.