SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Ah, age limit. That is interesting. Noone under 23 in a 121 cockpit anymore? Maybe this will end the should i go to college or fly jets debate that always pops up.
House, Senate pass 1500 rule, Rest rules, and more
- Thread starter Firebird2XC
- Start date
aloft
New Member
Read it again, bro. No bashing there at all.
nsmith2224
Well-Known Member
Maybe this will end the should i go to college or fly jets debate that always pops up.
HHMM, interesting you mention the college degree? Should they require a college degree to fly in the airlines? I thought the Air Force, Navy, and Marines require it operate their flight decks accordingly right? Honestly I don't understand how having 1500 hours will indirectly raise the pay rates at regional airlines accross the board, somebody please enlighten with a detailed economic explanation because I believe your fooling yourself:rotfl:, it seems to me you gentlemen want this to be a white collar profession at the the regional level right? Would you want your doctors or lawyers to go through a six month crash course and then call themselves the professional white collar class, while serving you? I think you get the point, without a 4 year college in whatever, your a modern day factory laborer in both a Capitalistic and Marxist perspective. Hints, your at the bottom of the barrel, pretty hard to make an impact on the system when you don't have any education to stand in today's society. Sorry if I have offended anybody without a college degree, but simply educaton raises pay across the board, not experience. So Firebird2XC when you say we did it, what did you really accomplish besides changing some rest requirements and training standards? Didn't the FO involved with 3407 have 1600 hours when she was hired? It seems to me we got more government intervention influenced by a grass roots movement, and they both have little knowledge or perspective of the airline industry........ usually not a good thing historically when the people who purpose and pass the laws have little knowledge. So High Five buddy, and again sorry if I have offended anybody, but I and others think this will do much more harm than good, and if you think this will indirectly raise the pay...... keep dream'in:rotfl:Goodnight
HHMM, interesting you mention the college degree? Should they require a college degree to fly in the airlines? I thought the Air Force, Navy, and Marines require it operate their flight decks accordingly right? Honestly I don't understand how having 1500 hours will indirectly raise the pay rates at regional airlines accross the board, somebody please enlighten with a detailed economic explanation because I believe your fooling yourself:rotfl:, it seems to me you gentlemen want this to be a white collar profession at the the regional level right? Would you want your doctors or lawyers to go through a six month crash course and then call themselves the professional white collar class, while serving you? I think you get the point, without a 4 year college in whatever, your a modern day factory laborer in both a Capitalistic and Marxist perspective. Hints, your at the bottom of the barrel, pretty hard to make an impact on the system when you don't have any education to stand in today's society. Sorry if I have offended anybody without a college degree, but simply educaton raises pay across the board, not experience. So Firebird2XC when you say we did it, what did you really accomplish besides changing some rest requirements and training standards? Didn't the FO involved with 3407 have 1600 hours when she was hired? It seems to me we got more government intervention influenced by a grass roots movement, and they both have little knowledge or perspective of the airline industry........ usually not a good thing historically when the people who purpose and pass the laws have little knowledge. So High Five buddy, and again sorry if I have offended anybody, but I and others think this will do much more harm than good, and if you think this will indirectly raise the pay...... keep dream'in:rotfl:Goodnight
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
A college degree doesnt change the fact you can still make an ass out of yourself.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I find it incredibly ironic that the man talking down to people who don't have a degree is using some of the worst spelling and grammar imaginable. I guess you should have paid a little bit more attention to your professors at that fancy college you attended.
Number1atNumber2
Tries to keep it fun.
I'll third this too. I've had my rather strong disagreements with some past posts, but you've really come a long way. :beer:
JOEFRIDAY2
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is the way that I read the bill. For the next three years it is legal for regional airlines to hire pilots with a 250 hour commercial certificate.
However on July 31, 2013, all pilots must have at least 1500 hours and an ATP rating to CONTINUE flying for the the airlines.
So on July 20, 2013 it is perfectly legal for a 250 hour f/o officer to fly passengers on an airliner. On July 31, 2013 that same pilot would no longer be legal to fly passengers.
I predict that regional airlines will "stock up" on low time pilots prior to the ATP requirement becoming mandatory. (over the next 12 months or so) This will allow those low time pilots to fly passengers and log those hours towards the 1500 hour requirement. It will take a pilot 20-24 months to fly the 1500 hours allowing time for additional training, etc.
If the regionals do not stock up on low time pilots, they are going to run out of pilots in a hurry as the majors suck every quaified regional captain out of the regional system and into the major airlines and thus leave the regionals without enough qualified pilots to keep the regional fleet in the air.
Planes will be parked and flights will be cancelled if those regional HR departments don't see this coming.
The majors may suck as many as 20,000 regional pilots into their airlines over the next 24 months as the effects of the workrule changes are complied with. Workrule changes and passenger growth are going to drive this need for pilots. Retirement is just a drop in the bucket and represents less than 1000 pilots per year for the next 5 years.
What this law does is puts about a 12 month window in place for someone to become a commercial pilot under the old requirements. At the point that the ATP is a mandatory requirement is the point that career flight training goes from being expensive to being just about impossible to pay for. This will reduce the number of career pilots which in turn will reduce the need for CFI's more than they already have.
And that pilot shortage they have been talking about for decades. Well it will have arrived.
Does this mean more pay for 1st year First Officers? Only if the existing pilots vote it in. And that is another story. Remember every first year pilot salary has been voted on by the pilots that already work for the airline. I would expect congress will have to get involved in this issue as well because I don't see pilots agreeing to provide more money to first year first officers. They want more money for themselves. It's the greed factor and it is one of the nastier parts of this business.
However, I fully support the law. It is decades overdue. It could not have been done without those 3407 families.
Joe
Nick
Well-Known Member
I predict they won't.
It's easier to just interview people with 1500TT.
Take a look at the ones that are hiring now and look at the resumes of those being interviewed.
fo4ever
Well-Known Member
wrxpilot
New Member
Huh? Why do some of you seem to think this will require folks to pay for every one of those 1500 hours? Regarding pilot experience, all this bill is going to do is require pilots to get experience outside the airlines first... Really, all it's going to do is maintain the situation we have now - today's Eagle and Colgan new hires have this much time on average.
Regarding the time line of this bill, keep in mind that the FAA is also working on this issue with a NPRM. It could potentially become enacted much sooner than this legislative action... I believe they (FAA) have targeted the end of the year for their changes.
tjvpa28
Well-Known Member
I am not in the airline industry so this is purely speculation, but here is my opinion:
1. A flight landing safely is not the sole effort of the FO. Highly skilled maintenance personnel, ATC, and of course an experienced captain, along with a modern aircraft with backup systems for its backup systems are why most flights takeoff and land without a hitch.
2. It is very difficult to get accepted into one of those ab initio programs that European pilots go through, where it's a bit easier to get a commercial certificate in the US to say the least.
Also, 7 accidents in the past 10 years is 7 too many, especially those due to negligence.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
Of the last 3 regional crashes I believe, all the captains were from Gia, landing 121 jobs with well less than 1000 hours. Trend maybe? Who knows.
You are not going to find a single 121 captain that 'wants' to work with a guy that just got his commercial temp in the mail. There are reasons for that. One of them is the sickening sense of entitlement that low timers carry. They seem to think they deserve a job because they passed.
Do you know what's involved with the European cadet programs? I'm guessing no. You would prob. Be on the line faster getting your 1500 hours, and not worrying about how 'unfair' it is for the govt' to pick a level of experience they think is necessary.
Consider it an extension of public will... The general public doesn't want somebody with almost no flight time that doesn't have dual received filled in. Go fly and learn. When you get to where I am, guess what you are gonna be saying to those 250 hour pilots?
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I'll bite.
I doubt you've heard of it but there is something called the "swiss cheese" model for accident prevention. Basically it says that accidents are all formed by links in a chain, but viewed as multiple pieces of swiss cheese stacked on top of each other. As long as a hole doesn't align on EVERY single piece of cheese (and in these case each piece is a layer of CRM; the captain, the FO, the FA, ATC, MTX etc) the errors are "trapped" and nothing bad happens. However, if the holes align the error isn't trapped and bad things happen. A low time FO is a piece of cheese with a whole lot of holes in it. Mostly, other pieces of cheese (namely the captain) capture the errors and hence we don't have planes falling out of the sky that often. The safety level we've enjoyed over the past 10 years at a regional has absolutely nothing to do with the skill of low time FOs and everything to do with the skills of everybody else in the model.
With that said, you could I suppose refute the whole point and say well then who cares, it's safe even if it comes down to the captain trapping most of the errors. And that's true, but that's NOT how the system is supposed to work. Because sooner or later you will get a weak captain and a weak FO paired up and they won't be able to trap the errors and you'll get something like 3407 happening.
First off, Europe doesn't have an "exemplary safety record". Secondly, it is extremely competitive to be hired with 250 hours to fly an Airbus. Those 250 hours are built while in training for the company which means they are focused solely on becoming a good Airbus/737 pilot. The washout rate is extremely high.
In other words, not every self entitled jackass off the street is going to be sitting in that cockpit after 250 hours. The people that make it there (similar to the military pilots in the US) are the top of the group, highly trained and very dedicated, all things you didn't see in the majority of new hire classes in the states recently.
I doubt you've heard of it but there is something called the "swiss cheese" model for accident prevention. Basically it says that accidents are all formed by links in a chain, but viewed as multiple pieces of swiss cheese stacked on top of each other. As long as a hole doesn't align on EVERY single piece of cheese (and in these case each piece is a layer of CRM; the captain, the FO, the FA, ATC, MTX etc) the errors are "trapped" and nothing bad happens. However, if the holes align the error isn't trapped and bad things happen. A low time FO is a piece of cheese with a whole lot of holes in it. Mostly, other pieces of cheese (namely the captain) capture the errors and hence we don't have planes falling out of the sky that often. The safety level we've enjoyed over the past 10 years at a regional has absolutely nothing to do with the skill of low time FOs and everything to do with the skills of everybody else in the model.
With that said, you could I suppose refute the whole point and say well then who cares, it's safe even if it comes down to the captain trapping most of the errors. And that's true, but that's NOT how the system is supposed to work. Because sooner or later you will get a weak captain and a weak FO paired up and they won't be able to trap the errors and you'll get something like 3407 happening.
First off, Europe doesn't have an "exemplary safety record". Secondly, it is extremely competitive to be hired with 250 hours to fly an Airbus. Those 250 hours are built while in training for the company which means they are focused solely on becoming a good Airbus/737 pilot. The washout rate is extremely high.
In other words, not every self entitled jackass off the street is going to be sitting in that cockpit after 250 hours. The people that make it there (similar to the military pilots in the US) are the top of the group, highly trained and very dedicated, all things you didn't see in the majority of new hire classes in the states recently.
GlenA
Senior Chicken Counter
Dude, seriously stop bashing other members of this site, it's unbecoming. Firebird has been a great contributor to this site and has been willing to help people that need it. Please don't make this the way you introduce yourself to our community. There are respectful ways to have differences in opinions. There is still time to save yourself and turn things around but you are closing that door quick.
FAYEV
Well-Known Member
Well it seems to me that you're completely wrong. I think many of the people involved in this movement DO have quite a bit of knowledge and perspective of the airline industry. Firebird2XC has mentioned that he actually flew for Colgan soooooo...there goes that argument. In fact, I'll quote an earlier post from him:
Firebird2XC said:
All this whining does nothing. You guys aren't making our generation look very respectable. "Waa waa waa, I don't wanna instruct." Fair enough, do something else! Buy a 150 and putt around in the pattern or get another job flying bank checks or something (which will probably be a lot more difficult for the ones whining on a site whose primary purpose is to increase networking opportunities). What you could do is take the advice of pilots with ACTUAL EXPERIENCE in this industry and realize that instructing won't be so bad if you understand how much of a benefit it will be to you. Or think of it this way: By instructing, you're paying forward the gift of flight. That is the reason why I cannot wait to be a CFI.
Would I rather get hired by XYZ Regional at 250 hours? Sure! Would it be for the best? I dunno, I won't know for sure until I'm actually in that seat. Most of the experienced professionals on this board who have actually been in that position claim that it's not for the best. I can't exactly ignore their opinions...they probably know what they're talking about.
I don't care if it takes 1500 or 15,000 hours to get there, I'm gonna get there. I reckon the trick is to enjoy the journey.
And that's my $0.02
hah look at the snide comments when i reposted my first question... respect ? ahaha :bandit: must be smoking the good stuff
this 1500 hr rule will not change anything in terms of safety unless real change is made in off duty hour rules as well as in house training for flight crews.
this 1500 hr rule will not change anything in terms of safety unless real change is made in off duty hour rules as well as in house training for flight crews.
tjvpa28
Well-Known Member
You have to give respect to get respect.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Good lord. Is this person for real?
Three words: GET OVER IT. Stuff happens in the industry...to everyone. And it will keep happening throughout your entire career. Deal with it. An extra year instructing will probably the least of your problems in your career.
I was in the midst of CFIing when Gulf War I broke out. Parked EVERYONE where they were at for at least 2 years.
I had 1100 pilots under me on 9/10/01. Two years later I was 20 from being furloughed.
And I was one of the LUCKY ones. I have friends that are dead because of this business.
Now you kids get off my lawn...
Richman