House committee votes to raise pilot retirement age to 67

[Richman]

Except for a very brief time period in 2006 to about 2008 (and then again right before the ATP rule went in to place), nobody was getting hired with less than 1000 hours, and when time were tough, nobody was going to the "commuters" with less 3000.

Agreed.

There are several, ugly, intertwined factors at play here:

1) The collapse of pay, benefits and working conditions at the major airlines: There was none of this talk prior to the major contract resets of mid-naughties. It was only then, after the career was worth significantly less that the pipeline imploded on itself. The bankruptcies were in 2004-06, and sure enough, it was just after that the regional pipeline started to eat itself. You need to have a golden ring for people to get involved, and that went away.

What Bob said is absolutely correct. Only during times of extreme turnover did the commuters ever dip down to 1,000/100. We're talking every major pax and cargo airline hiring (and remember, there were more of them) and some commuters seeing close to 100% turnover on an annual basis. This during a time when most training was done in the aircraft, and commuters/regionals didn't have the relatively more robust infrastructure they do today. Yet the minimums remained stubbornly high, despite the lack of the ATP rule, and no one was bitching about it.

During lean times, it wasn't uncommon to see the "A" regionals like Eagle, Henson or Comair require 3,500/1000.

2) The collapse of general aviation. This is worthy of a whole separate conversation, but suffice to say, in 1990, it cost $15,000, all in (including room and board) to go zero to hero (CFI/CFII/MEI). With inflation, that's about $35k. Expensive, but doable. The actual cost today is touching $100k. Less if you work the system, but not less in a meaningful fashion.

3) Societal changes. Let's face it, flying for the airlines can be a drag. Cut your hair, clean shaven, don't do drugs, watch the meds you're on, don't be an ass on social media and plan on working most holidays and weekends to start. That's fairly incompatible for the yuuts of today. Even if you're down with most of the program, watching your friends YOLOing every night and weekend on Tak-Tik, MyFace and Snapbook while you're stuck in Muncie has to have some friction in it.

4) Pull back in the military. Nuff said, but let's recall as late as the 1980's the major airlines (and remember, there were more then) got 80%+ of their candidates from the military. These days it's barely 25%.

The only part of this equation that is somewhat controllable is the pay piece. The airlines, for nearly a century, have benefitted from an extremely strong and capable cadre of experienced, self-funded pilots. They've literally bled it dry, while crapping on the system that provided it.

That bill has now come due.

 

[CFIT99]

Pre-hire USMC-style PT test. Will give you a healthier pilot force that doesn’t look like a bag of donuts in their company uniform.

lets start with a 5th grade level PT test....you think there's a pilot shortage now, wait till you apply even a 10 min mile to the standards...hilarity will ensue

 

[Beep]

lets start with a 5th grade level PT test....you think there's a pilot shortage now, wait till you apply even a 10 min mile to the standards...hilarity will ensue

No sweat! As long as I can use a bicycle for that one.

 

[JordanD]

No sweat! As long as I can use a bicycle for that one.

Golf cart!

 

[ClearedForOption]

No sweat! As long as I can use a bicycle for that one.

You know what I have that my 5th grade self didn't have, an automobile carriage. I can zip to 7/11 and back with a slurpee in less than 10 min.

It's just good CRM, using all available resources.

 

[///AMG]

You know what I have that my 5th grade self didn't have, an automobile carriage. I can zip to 7/11 and back with a slurpee in less than 10 min.

It's just good CRM, using all available resources.

I had this great "manager" (we called it a different thing in the military), when I was a junior schedules officer in my first tour. The big boss, the skipper, was kind of an a hole, and he would routinely have a look at our collectively proofed flight schedule for the next day, at maybe 3-4 PM. He'd murder it with his red pen based on his personal whims, send it back, and then go fly/debrief until maybe 9 or 10 pm. We'd have to wait around for him to get back and sign the schedule. Anyway, my immediate boss would then throw up his hands, say f it, and we would hop into his Jeep and make a quick drive to the 7/11 for slurpees. Sometimes it is the little things in life

 

[tcco94]

Unfortunately, not everyone has the option of going right from flying the line to a schoolhouse gig to keep the income coming in.

That being said, a schoolhouse retirement gig sounds like the best thing ever to me.

Not being around work and airplanes sounds like the best thing ever to me. Really, retirement sim work is your dream??

 

[MikeD]

Not being around work and airplanes sounds like the best thing ever to me. Really, retirement sim work is your dream??

More like, it’s probably their necessity

 

[ClearedForOption]

Not being around work and airplanes sounds like the best thing ever to me. Really, retirement sim work is your dream??

I like teaching. And every time adjunct instructor posts, it doesn’t make sense for me to split my schedule and be away in FL vs. my RSV schedule. I lament about it every time. I even did all kinds of calculus when CKA posted recently… giving up my QOL and having to bid a schedule each month…. Versus RSV.

I regret bidding a schedule for July already. About every six months I say to myself, I should fly a schedule… and it always goes sideways. And I go back to the ‘known’ unknown of RSV.

And who knows, maybe my kids will want to go to Law School, or something crazy expensive, in their 20s… the point is that you can’t judge all people’s finances on the last awesome 10 year cycle. And you can’t just an issue because the vocal proponents for/against it have selfish motives.

Anyhoo, I still like airplanes. And who knows what the world’s gonna look like when I hit 65. All I do is save. But I lost my retirement in the tech bubble of the early 00s and really didn’t start saving till I was in my mid 30s. This being my 2nd go around. Lack of compound interest… sucks.

One thing I learned during the plague, I need to have things to do. I don’t know what form that’s gonna take in my later years, but like I said… I like teaching. An air conditioned motion roller coaster, shorter days, and working with young professionals is higher on the scale than a SE trainer at the local dirt strip for instance.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

@Richman


Sad that this is being quoted as a reason the next gen doesn’t want to enter piloting. Screw the new generation of entitled dimwits.


“Societal changes. Let's face it, flying for the airlines can be a drag. Cut your hair, clean shaven, don't do drugs, watch the meds you're on, don't be an ass on social media and plan on working most holidays and weekends to start. That's fairly incompatible for the yuuts of today. Even if you're down with most of the program, watching your friends YOLOing every night and weekend on Tak-Tik, MyFace and Snapbook while you're stuck in Muncie has to have some friction in it. ”



Oh the horror. Having to wake up early, shave, make yourself look presentable, avoid drugs and alcohol, and not be a d-bag online. Pathetic that this is the stuff the new gen needs to feel validated.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I like teaching. And every time adjunct instructor posts, it doesn’t make sense for me to split my schedule and be away in FL vs. my RSV schedule. I lament about it every time. I even did all kinds of calculus when CKA posted recently… giving up my QOL and having to bid a schedule each month…. Versus RSV.

I regret bidding a schedule for July already. About every six months I say to myself, I should fly a schedule… and it always goes sideways. And I go back to the ‘known’ unknown of RSV.

And who knows, maybe my kids will want to go to Law School, or something crazy expensive, in their 20s… the point is that you can’t judge all people’s finances on the last awesome 10 year cycle. And you can’t just an issue because the vocal proponents for/against it have selfish motives.

Anyhoo, I still like airplanes. And who knows what the world’s gonna look like when I hit 65. All I do is save. But I lost my retirement in the tech bubble of the early 00s and really didn’t start saving till I was in my mid 30s. This being my 2nd go around. Lack of compound interest… sucks.

One thing I learned during the plague, I need to have things to do. I don’t know what form that’s gonna take in my later years, but like I said… I like teaching. An air conditioned motion roller coaster, shorter days, and working with young professionals is higher on the scale than a SE trainer at the local dirt strip for instance.

Just to clarify, you purposefully bid reserve because in your off days you can pick up straight or premium trips for extra pay? And just count on / hope you don’t get used on regular reserve days?

What RAP do you like to do that has highest chance of not being used? Or is jetBlue still like the old contract, you find out your RAP for tomorrow by tonight evening?

 

[zmiller4]

@Richman


Sad that this is being quoted as a reason the next gen doesn’t want to enter piloting. Screw the new generation of entitled dimwits.


“Societal changes. Let's face it, flying for the airlines can be a drag. Cut your hair, clean shaven, don't do drugs, watch the meds you're on, don't be an ass on social media and plan on working most holidays and weekends to start. That's fairly incompatible for the yuuts of today. Even if you're down with most of the program, watching your friends YOLOing every night and weekend on Tak-Tik, MyFace and Snapbook while you're stuck in Muncie has to have some friction in it. ”



Oh the horror. Having to wake up early, shave, make yourself look presentable, avoid drugs and alcohol, and not be a d-bag online. Pathetic that this is the stuff the new gen needs to feel validated.

Question for you.

If, instead of attending a school that guaranteed you an interview with a regional after a few months if you finished, you had to find a way to build an additional 1200hrs…would you have done it, and what would have been your path to get there?

 

[ClearedForOption]

Just to clarify, you purposefully bid reserve because in your off days you can pick up straight or premium trips for extra pay? And just count on / hope you don’t get used on regular reserve days?

What RAP do you like to do that has highest chance of not being used? Or is jetBlue still like the old contract, you find out your RAP for tomorrow by tonight evening?

Well, not gonna post my ‘technique’ on a public forum. People senior to me may be reading this. Lately I’ve done ‘long call’ - which has no system. If something drops, and you are next, you get the call. Most of my trips are assigned the day prior, but it’s a continuous 14 hr callout. You work more on average but no RAPs. (Except if you are converted to a short callout, which is limited to 5 days per month if I remember right.)

The only ‘extra’ that RSV’s have access to (at my shop, above guarantee) is premium on our off days. The trip has to be designated that, and there are very few contractual rules for how/when that happens. Not a lot of water in that desert for me the last couple of months. So, I’ve been enjoying the time off. (Straight time is towards guarantee… or working for free)

Our RAPs are still assigned the day prior. Which is something I hope to see changed in the JCBA. I don’t think it’s safe to start at XX:XX on day one and be shuffled all over the place. It’s very hard to plan your rest for that.

Our trips aren’t that great anyway, so I honestly don’t care what I’m doing/where I’m going. (Except CUN and KIN) Reserve works for me. I’ve run the numbers over the years on average usage vs a schedule and I’m. It gonna say that I’m beating the casino or anything, it just works for my individual situation.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Thank goodness for age 56 mandatory retirement. I’d be out at 50 without a look back if it wasn’t for my daughter but fortunately she turns 18 when I turn 56.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Horses for courses. Some guys love airplanes and would waste away without being around them. They could tell you what year that Bonanza is by listening to it start up. Other guys got in to this because it's a pretty decent paycheck and grad school is tough. They can maybe identify a Boeing, an Airbus, and everything else is a Cessna Piper Cub. (A propos to nothing, hi CC!)

I'm somewhere in the middle, I guess. I don't want to be *really* working in a cockpit after I'm 60, if I can avoid it. But I would almost certainly have a GA airplane of some type if I were still capable of operating the thing. And I might not even say no to one of those mythical "cushy King Air" gigs.

To each their own.

Obviously that's a separate discussion from the potential raising of the retirement age...

 

[Bob Ridpath]

OK, so maybe a dumb question. Assuming that 67 will be the mandatory age for retirement, might one still opt out earlier (60, 62, 65), or is this a required age to get out of the game?

I understand there are dollars involved as one stays longer. Best choice I think I've ever made was retiring a couple years before I "had" to; cost a few bucks monthly but it was priceless in terms of emotional health - for me.

As an aside, four years tomorrow, and never been happier or more content.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Well, not gonna post my ‘technique’ on a public forum. People senior to me may be reading this. Lately I’ve done ‘long call’ - which has no system. If something drops, and you are next, you get the call. Most of my trips are assigned the day prior, but it’s a continuous 14 hr callout. You work more on average but no RAPs. (Except if you are converted to a short callout, which is limited to 5 days per month if I remember right.)

The only ‘extra’ that RSV’s have access to (at my shop, above guarantee) is premium on our off days. The trip has to be designated that, and there are very few contractual rules for how/when that happens. Not a lot of water in that desert for me the last couple of months. So, I’ve been enjoying the time off. (Straight time is towards guarantee… or working for free)

Our RAPs are still assigned the day prior. Which is something I hope to see changed in the JCBA. I don’t think it’s safe to start at XX:XX on day one and be shuffled all over the place. It’s very hard to plan your rest for that.

Our trips aren’t that great anyway, so I honestly don’t care what I’m doing/where I’m going. (Except CUN and KIN) Reserve works for me. I’ve run the numbers over the years on average usage vs a schedule and I’m. It gonna say that I’m beating the casino or anything, it just works for my individual situation.

Ah, I see. Makes sense.


With that parking of the Bus out LAX -119 CAs and adding only +40 , I’ll be reserve again. I’d like doe above 79 hr guarantee.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

OK, so maybe a dumb question. Assuming that 67 will be the mandatory age for retirement, might one still opt out earlier (60, 62, 65), or is this a required age to get out of the game?

I understand there are dollars involved as one stays longer. Best choice I think I've ever made was retiring a couple years before I "had" to; cost a few bucks monthly but it was priceless in terms of emotional health - for me.

As an aside, four years tomorrow, and never been happier or more content.

Of course. Can punch out anytime.

 

[EIR]

OK, so maybe a dumb question. Assuming that 67 will be the mandatory age for retirement, might one still opt out earlier (60, 62, 65), or is this a required age to get out of the game?

I understand there are dollars involved as one stays longer. Best choice I think I've ever made was retiring a couple years before I "had" to; cost a few bucks monthly but it was priceless in terms of emotional health - for me.

As an aside, four years tomorrow, and never been happier or more content.

Absolutely! Most folks at Brown are checking out 60-63, very few are actually staying until 65. Our pension kicks in at 60, so that’s a big deciding factor for us. If I can live comfortably at 55, I’ll retire; if not, I’ll stay till 60.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Absolutely! Most folks at Brown are checking out 60-63, very few are actually staying until 65. Our pension kicks in at 60, so that’s a big deciding factor for us. If I can live comfortably at 55, I’ll retire; if not, I’ll stay till 60.

Amen. Think of it this way. They're betting that you're going to get a couple more years of big(ish) paychecks and then drop dead so they don't have to pay your pension. You're betting that you're invincible and will live forever, even after 20-30 years of awful schedules, food, air, etc. If you were an alien in low earth orbit just watching this stuff on the screen, where would your money be? I only needed one boat anyway.