Hiring tracking (opposite of furlough tracking)

dasleben said:
Well, I'll just say, my lack of TPIC hasn't stalled my career progression at all. In fact, at my last two interviews, I've been given a lot of respect for doing what I did at Cape Air. I'm sorry if AirTran doesn't consider that "command" experience, but those of us who've done it know better. I suppose I don't really care to work for an airline that doesn't even understand what SPIFR flying is all about, anyway (hint to the HR folks lurking around: It's autonomous command experience; no dispatch, no load planners, no support).

Oh well, back to studying for initial here at Silver... ;)
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Actually, I kind of agree with you that Cape Air experience should count. I think you know a friend of mine at Omni who couldn't apply at AirTran because his PIC experience was all at Air Cargo Carriers flying Shorts 360s. That's clearly "command experience," even if it wasn't at a Part 121 carrier. Always bothered me that I couldn't help him get hired. I'm using TPIC as shorthand for command experience, so that's my mistake.
 
jtrain609 said:
You know I'm going back to work when I graduate, right? I'm happy to go back my "all regionals suck" airline.
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Sure! Why not? Flying is fun. You could be a valuable resource on the negotiating committee, you could start a small practice on the side, or you could just have it in your pocket in the event of a lost medical. You have the ultimate plan B!

I'm quite jealous.
 
dasleben said:
(hint to the HR folks lurking around: It's autonomous command experience; no dispatch, no load planners, no support).
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Don't look at me. I'm just married to a pilot. I work in the art world at a museum/arboretum and teach HR at a university. So if you want to learn about recruiting staff to work among works by Renoir, Matisse, Van Gogh, Picasso, Monet, Modigliani, Soutine, Rouseseau, etc., then see me.
 
dasleben said:
Well, I'll just say, my lack of TPIC hasn't stalled my career progression at all. In fact, at my last two interviews, I've been given a lot of respect for doing what I did at Cape Air. I'm sorry if AirTran doesn't consider that "command" experience, but those of us who've done it know better. I suppose I don't really care to work for an airline that doesn't even understand what SPIFR flying is all about, anyway (hint to the HR folks lurking around: It's autonomous command experience; no dispatch, no load planners, no support).

Oh well, back to studying for initial here at Silver... ;)
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Are you being sarcastic or did Omni have furloughs I didnt hear about??
 
IIRC he's being sarcastic. Same plane he was in at Omni, new airline though. Flying boxes now, unless they use the 767 for charter flights. Das?
 
Okay, I think this topic deserves its own disussion thread because I do think it needs to be discussed. Just not in the "Hiring news" thread.

Here's the problem: the industry has changed since the early 2000s, so the applications requirements need to adapt to it. You've got a backlog of people that have been trying to escape the regionals for 5+ years with no place to go and the guys behind them stagnated at FO. It's ludicrious to eliminate someone who might be a perfect fit for your organziation except he didn't have the seniority to upgrade. Meanwhile, as others have stated, there are guys in the left seat that are going to get themselves and their passengers killed some day. I do NOT think that someone with TPIC should immediately be assumed they're a better candidate simply because they have command time. Should it come into play? Sure, to a certain point. Honestly, 500 hours of 121 PIC time is barely enough to get you exposed to being violated. That's not even 7 months on the line as a lineholder. But to eliminate potentially awesome candidates because their seniority stagnated isn't very smart. Almost as smart as saying "Go to a good carrier, but go to Go Jets first to get TPIC time because you're at ExpressJet now but can't upgrade."

Also, Jesus doesn't need TPIC time. He can zap himself to the Americas after dying in order to witness to Native Americans....who are also white.
 
kellwolf said:
Here's the problem: the industry has changed since the early 2000s, so the applications requirements need to adapt to it. You've got a backlog of people that have been trying to escape the regionals for 5+ years with no place to go and the guys behind them stagnated at FO.
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Hiring standards shouldn't change just because a group of FOs are stuck at the regionals for a while. If those FOs are stuck, then so are the captains above them, and they should be given the first opportunities. The idea that an RJ FO should be able to bypass all of the guys senior to him who have thousands of hours of command experience is nuts.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Hiring standards shouldn't change just because a group of FOs are stuck at the regionals for a while. If those FOs are stuck, then so are the captains above them, and they should be given the first opportunities. The idea that an RJ FO should be able to bypass all of the guys senior to him who have thousands of hours of command experience is nuts.
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I hate the idea of seniority for moving on to better jobs. We have enough douchebaggery in this industry as-is; the only way to keep that in check is to allow the good guys to move on. I have no interest in sharing the cockpit with a jerk for 17+ days, who got where he was only because of his seniority. I have to imagine Delta guys hate the idea of flow for that reason.
 
meyers9163 said:
cvg?
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I'm in training until later this month, but yeah, CVG for now. Hoping for perhaps LAX or JFK on the next bid, but #juniorpilotproblems may prevent that. I pretty much plan to hang out at Atlas until they kick me out anyway, so no worries either way.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Hiring standards shouldn't change just because a group of FOs are stuck at the regionals for a while. If those FOs are stuck, then so are the captains above them, and they should be given the first opportunities. The idea that an RJ FO should be able to bypass all of the guys senior to him who have thousands of hours of command experience is nuts.
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Yeah, right. Keep telling yourself that.
 
dasleben said:
I hate the idea of seniority for moving on to better jobs. We have enough douchebaggery in this industry as-is; the only way to keep that in check is to allow the good guys to move on. I have no interest in sharing the cockpit with a jerk for 17+ days, who got where he was only because of his seniority. I have to imagine Delta guys hate the idea of flow for that reason.
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This. Shouldn't we hire the best candidates, not the ones that won the seniority lottery? Senioirty SHOULDN'T be everything. Then you've got places like Pinnacle that are shrinking where a good chunk of CA spots will be held by senior guys in MSP with no desire to move on. They aren't stagnated, they're right where they want to be. However, the FOs wanting to move on behind them ARE stagnated.

Here's the majors that require TPIC:

Fedex (1,000)
Southwest (1,000)

The others: United, Delta, US Airways, Virgin America and jetBlue don't have a TPIC requirement. Some have other requirements, like a 4 year degree (Oh NO! Delta and FedEx). FedEx also wants you to have a FE Written done. SWA wants the infamous 737 type by the time you start class. I couldn't find info on Alaska, American, Spirit or Allegiant, but if they DID require TPIC, they would be in the MINORITY. Plenty of requirements out there for a certain amount of turbine time. I don't see why you can't just have a ratio of TSIC time to TPIC time. That way, the guys with SIC time aren't elminated totally. TPIC could count as more than TSIC, but TSIC isn't useless as some people would apparently believe.
 
It is funny. In 1998 there were only two airlines that required TPIC, Southwest and FedEx. So, before I got the 1000 I took a job at AirTran who, at the time required only a pulse and the ability to identify a DC9 on the ramp 2 out of 3 times. When I was furloughed by AirTran in October 98, I ended up at USAir in Jan 1999... Still without the 1000 tpic.

Fast forward to March 2002. I am furloughed along with 1,149 of my closest friends (at my airline alone). Suddenly EVERYONE wanted at least some TPIC. I was no longer qualified to go back to AirTran (not that they would have hired me back anyway). The other airlines who were hiring SWA, ATA, Vanguard, Eastwind, ProAir... Suddenly they were in the position that they could ask for a lunar landing qualification and they would still have hundreds of resumes rolling in.

A LOT of us...and I mean A LOT... went back to the regionals because we lacked the qualifications to go elsewhere. I went to Comair during my furlough and had 4 other furloughed USAir guys in my class. None of us had the PIC time to go elsewhere, but we all had 7000+ hours TT and lots of Boeing and Douglas right seat time.

The airline industry is notorious for changing the rules in the middle of the game. My advice is worth less than nothing, but I would say that if you are able to get that PIC turbine, then don't dismiss it in favor of a second tier carrier. Nothing is more demoralizing than finding yourself without the qualifications to get a flying job after having been a pilot for many, many years and thousands of hours.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Fast forward to March 2002. I am furloughed along with 1,149 of my closest friends (at my airline alone). Suddenly EVERYONE wanted at least some TPIC.
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When I was still commuting from SFO back to the east coast, and desperately trying to get hired by Virgin, I can't tell you how many Airbus FOs I talked to who had 10,000+ hours of Airbus time but couldn't apply to Virgin (to fly an Airbus) because they didn't have 1000 PIC. It was really strange that me (with 6 years in the industry, my wimpy 5000 total but the holy grail of more than 1000 TPIC) was more competitive for a job than a guy with 20+ years in the industry and 15,000 hours of time.

Crazy world.
 
BobDDuck said:
When I was still commuting from SFO back to the east coast, and desperately trying to get hired by Virgin, I can't tell you how many Airbus FOs I talked to who had 10,000+ hours of Airbus time but couldn't apply to Virgin (to fly an Airbus) because they didn't have 1000 PIC. It was really strange that me (with 6 years in the industry, my wimpy 5000 total but the holy grail of more than 1000 TPIC) was more competitive for a job than a guy with 20+ years in the industry and 15,000 hours of time.

Crazy world.
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Where you at now? Are you still interested in VX? Yes, VX kept the 5000TT and 1000TPIC for a long time, until Nov 2011. Now it's 4000TT and prefer 1000TPIC, but some have gotten in with 0 TPIC.



Hiring standards shouldn't change just because a group of FOs are stuck at the regionals for a while. If those FOs are stuck, then so are the captains above them, and they should be given the first opportunities. The idea that an RJ FO should be able to bypass all of the guys senior to him who have thousands of hours of command experience is nuts.
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Not really nuts. So you're saying more seniority should get you a leg up on the hiring scale at majors/legacies? Seniority at a regional really means nothing to HR. They want to see your hours and the quality of flying (Part 121, 135, etc). It doesn't matter (and shouldn't matter) if you are a 10 yr regional guy or a 5 year regional guy. The goal should be to hire a good candidate who is personable to get along with for 6-8+ hrs per day on a 4 day trip. And don't shoot the messenger, but I've heard some horror stories of some regional guys with 10,000+ total time and boat loads of TPIC time that are seen as "overqualified" and that they would have trouble adjusting to a FO role again. Not my belief, and I don't think that should be used to eliminate someone, but it has happened.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
It is funny. In 1998 there were only two airlines that required TPIC, Southwest and FedEx. So, before I got the 1000 I took a job at AirTran who, at the time required only a pulse and the ability to identify a DC9 on the ramp 2 out of 3 times. When I was furloughed by AirTran in October 98, I ended up at USAir in Jan 1999... Still without the 1000 tpic.

Fast forward to March 2002. I am furloughed along with 1,149 of my closest friends (at my airline alone). Suddenly EVERYONE wanted at least some TPIC. I was no longer qualified to go back to AirTran (not that they would have hired me back anyway). The other airlines who were hiring SWA, ATA, Vanguard, Eastwind, ProAir... Suddenly they were in the position that they could ask for a lunar landing qualification and they would still have hundreds of resumes rolling in.

A LOT of us...and I mean A LOT... went back to the regionals because we lacked the qualifications to go elsewhere. I went to Comair during my furlough and had 4 other furloughed USAir guys in my class. None of us had the PIC time to go elsewhere, but we all had 7000+ hours TT and lots of Boeing and Douglas right seat time.

The airline industry is notorious for changing the rules in the middle of the game. My advice is worth less than nothing, but I would say that if you are able to get that PIC turbine, then don't dismiss it in favor of a second tier carrier. Nothing is more demoralizing than finding yourself without the qualifications to get a flying job after having been a pilot for many, many years and thousands of hours.
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I don't blame you for your path, I would have done the same. Can I ask though, after the Airtran furlough, were you ever called back? If so, when? And did you defer it and still have rights? That's why I'm hesitant to jump VX. You just don't know where that carrier will end up. Lets be honest, no one in the world could ever have predicted that ValuJet would be Southwest one day. Not to slam ValuJet or its pilots, but those who stuck around there have struck gold today. You just can't tell how it will turn out, but isn't the story everywhere?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Where you at now? Are you still interested in VX? Yes, VX kept the 5000TT and 1000TPIC for a long time, until Nov 2011. Now it's 4000TT and prefer 1000TPIC, but some have gotten in with 0 TPIC.
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I interviewed in August. During the 1st of 2 panel interviews, the HR guy on the panel (I think he's the only dude in HR who does them so you know who I'm talking about) apparently got confused and thought I'd already done the other panel so after he and Mark finished with me, he walked me to the elevator, pressed 1, thanked me for coming and wished me good luck. I got the no thanks email the next week and when I followed up with my contact (in Fleet Standards) he informed me that I had walked out of the interview midway through and as such was not offered a job.
 
BobDDuck said:
I interviewed in August. During the 1st of 2 panel interviews, the HR guy on the panel (I think he's the only dude in HR who does them so you know who I'm talking about) apparently got confused and thought I'd already done the other panel so after he and Mark finished with me, he walked me to the elevator, pressed 1, thanked me for coming and wished me good luck. I got the no thanks email the next week and when I followed up with my contact (in Fleet Standards) he informed me that I had walked out of the interview midway through and as such was not offered a job.
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I don't know any guy on the HR panel for pilots, so maybe he isn't in that role anymore. That sounds like you really got screwed, and it's wrong. Were you able to follow up with your contact and tell him your side of the story?
 
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