Hey, all you old-timers! RETIRE ALREADY!

Velocipede said:
Just don't forget, most of us are sitting back watching the stupid mistakes you noobs make. We're only laughing because we've been there, done that.
Click to expand...

Very true- just make sure we get told that.

Getting us 'on the team' is more crucial than ever. Captains are paid to be the final authority of the flight, and however competent and autonomous an FO is, the Captain watches us too.

So who's watching the Captain?

The pilot in the left seat is neither infallible or bulletproof.

I'm sneakier than I look. Read in a little deeper and you'll see what I'm REALLY digging at.

WAKE UP- you Captains, that fail to realize that us upcoming FOs are the future of your profession AND our own..

... but more to the point..

WAKE UP, you STUPID, SLACK JAWED, WIDE-EYED FOs! Captains are *experienced*, not supernatural! If you are not approaching this job with every bit of skepticism you can when you're told something, you're a damned moron. That captain could stroke out in flight and it'll be JUST YOU. Beyond that- he might fold when you really need his support on the next union event. Where were you?

See what I mean? Debunking the myth of the 'All-Knowing Captain' is step one to making FOs realize that they need to be stepping up in a BIG way.

Sorry Skippers, but it's true- you've got to be ready to relinquish the baton in order to hand it off to your pupils that are rounding the corner.

This muckracking stuff is fun. I should get after bigger targets, no?
 
Firebird,


Well first of all, I never said you left CJC just because you wanted to fly a jet. Its just you talked about it more than I did. I didn't make that assumption because you're single. Because you are single, this industry/career field what have you, is more on your mind than those of us dealing with starting a family.

Its good that you are thinking a lot about the industry, but seriously man, what do you really know? What could you have possibly learned in less then a year of 121 flying that would lead you spout off to the "Captains"? Thats an honest question because I really don't know. I'm just trying to learn *how* to become a Captain, not pick apart the Captains I fly with.

Its almost like you're that E3 guy with less then 1 year military experience spouting off to the E6 and above guys about how crappy they do their job. I'm sure given the chance, those E6 and above guys could rip you a new one about how you do your job.

You learn from Captains, be it good qualities or bad. You've got a bone to pick with the bad. Good. Don't make the same mistakes they do when you are become a Captain.

Firebird2XC said:
They have to deal with it, and so do we. Everytime I hear somebody moan about RJs I think what they must have said when they signed away the scope covering them. I'M not bemoaning having a job- I'm bemoaning the guys whining about the nature of the industry when they, themselves, created it.
Click to expand...

Well thats not the impression I got from your original post, but I agree with you here. I get tired of hearing this and that about Rj's and how we're "stealing" mainline jobs etc.

Firebird2XC said:
I, however, will not sit back while others make decisions for me and smile because of my position in the seniority list. I'm going to remind them that I'm breathing down their necks, and they'd better remember me, too. They need me just as much as I need them.
Click to expand...

No offense Charlie, but with less then what, 6 months at Eagle, you have no choice but to sit back and smile while others make decisions around you. Its going to be that way for awhile dude. Some day, when I've worked my way up to a position to change things, I will be proactive. Right now, I'm keeping my mouth shut and developing as an "Airline pilot" first.

"Breathing down" your Captains neck, as you put it, is not being a "Team Player". Its not exercising good "CRM". Its being passive aggressive at best and something a First Officer should not be doing in a cockpit. Maybe you missed that hole part of initial training about CRM and Captains authority. You have NO authority in that airplane Charlie unless you Captain keels over. He's the man. You're his wingman. You don't fly behind your wingman with your gun sights on his tail. Catch what I'm trying to say?

Firebird2XC said:
How arrogant to make that assumption about me because I'm single.
Click to expand...

And I just wanted to comment on this. I am not being arrogant towards you, I am not attacking you personally. We are just having a discussion. You know I have nothing against you and I'm sure we'll share a few drinks again, but there is nothing wrong with having a discussion, even if we don't agree. ;)
 
Airdale said:
Its good that you are thinking a lot about the industry, but seriously man, what do you really know? What could you have possibly learned in less then a year of 121 flying that would lead you spout off to the "Captains"? Thats an honest question because I really don't know. I'm just trying to learn *how* to become a Captain, not pick apart the Captains I fly with.

Its almost like you're that E3 guy with less then 1 year military experience spouting off to the E6 and above guys about how crappy they do their job. I'm sure given the chance, those E6 and above guys could rip you a new one about how you do your job.

No offense Charlie, but with less then what, 6 months at Eagle, you have no choice but to sit back and smile while others make decisions around you. Its going to be that way for awhile dude. Some day, when I've worked my way up to a position to change things, I will be proactive. Right now, I'm keeping my mouth shut and developing as an "Airline pilot" first.

"Breathing down" your Captains neck, as you put it, is not being a "Team Player". Its not exercising good "CRM". Its being passive aggressive at best and something a First Officer should not be doing in a cockpit. Maybe you missed that hole part of initial training about CRM and Captains authority. You have NO authority in that airplane Charlie unless you Captain keels over. He's the man. You're his wingman. You don't fly behind your wingman with your gun sights on his tail. Catch what I'm trying to say?
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
WOW

I really can not believe I am reading what some people are writing on here.

:whatever:
 
Airdale said:
Its good that you are thinking a lot about the industry, but seriously man, what do you really know? What could you have possibly learned in less then a year of 121 flying that would lead you spout off to the "Captains"? Thats an honest question because I really don't know. I'm just trying to learn *how* to become a Captain, not pick apart the Captains I fly with.

Its almost like you're that E3 guy with less then 1 year military experience spouting off to the E6 and above guys about how crappy they do their job. I'm sure given the chance, those E6 and above guys could rip you a new one about how you do your job.
Click to expand...

That's the first thing I thought of when I read some of Firbird's posts in this thread.

If a new pilot walked into a fighter squadron and started pontificating on *anything* in his first year, he would be laughed at and ridiculed to no end. That is simply not enough time and experience to have it "all figured out" in my world -- hell, I've been flying for the USAF for 10 years, and I still don't have it all figured out to the point where I can pontificate about "how it is and how it should be". For someone who is the equivalent of a new Lieutenant to be calling out the senior Captains and Majors and telling them they're doing it wrong...wow, that is just folly. That's the military perspective, but I can't imagine how things could be that much different at a commercial flying outfit.

I say good on ya, Firebird, for questioning everything. BUT, the right way to attack it is to question it to yourself until you have enough time and experience to actually be able to assess the answers to your question and come up with the correct course of action.
 
Hacker15e said:
If a new pilot walked into a fighter squadron and started pontificating on *anything* in his first year, he would be laughed at and ridiculed to no end. That is simply not enough time and experience to have it "all figured out" in my world -- hell, I've been flying for the USAF for 10 years, and I still don't have it all figured out to the point where I can pontificate about "how it is and how it should be". For someone who is the equivalent of a new Lieutenant to be calling out the senior Captains and Majors and telling them they're doing it wrong...wow, that is just folly. That's the military perspective, but I can't imagine how things could be that much different at a commercial flying outfit.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

Remember most airline cultures are descended from the military ready rooms of WWII.

I say good on ya, Firebird, for questioning everything. BUT, the right way to attack it is to question it to yourself until you have enough time and experience to actually be able to assess the answers to your question and come up with the correct course of action.
Click to expand...

Hopefully, he's just flaming. Or he missed CRM day in ground school. Some remediation is indicated.

Hacker15e said:
Wingmen don't fly behind other wingmen. Wingmen fly behind flight leads.

:)
Click to expand...

Helicopter pilots are different.
 
Hacker15e said:
That's the first thing I thought of when I read some of Firbird's posts in this thread.

If a new pilot walked into a fighter squadron and started pontificating on *anything* in his first year, he would be laughed at and ridiculed to no end. That is simply not enough time and experience to have it "all figured out" in my world -- hell, I've been flying for the USAF for 10 years, and I still don't have it all figured out to the point where I can pontificate about "how it is and how it should be". For someone who is the equivalent of a new Lieutenant to be calling out the senior Captains and Majors and telling them they're doing it wrong...wow, that is just folly. That's the military perspective, but I can't imagine how things could be that much different at a commercial flying outfit.

I say good on ya, Firebird, for questioning everything. BUT, the right way to attack it is to question it to yourself until you have enough time and experience to actually be able to assess the answers to your question and come up with the correct course of action.
Click to expand...

Sit silent, and do nothing? Bah- what fun is that!

Evaluate, pontificate, instigate!
 
Velocipede said:
:yeahthat:

Remember most airline cultures are descended from the military ready rooms of WWII.



Hopefully, he's just flaming. Or he missed CRM day in ground school. Some remediation is indicated.



Helicopter pilots are different.
Click to expand...

Some of it WAS just flaming. Some of it was "stop putting the blame on the new guys"... because frankly if we've been here so short a time that we know nothing, we certainly haven't had time to exert enough influence on the industry to cause some of the problems we get tagged with.
 
PCL_128 said:
How 'bout sit down, shut up, and learn something. What's with this rash of new guys that think they can tell all the experienced guys a thing or two? It's starting to get old.
Click to expand...

That's what I do in the cockpit.

On the ground, I say what I like.

You never know, you might just learn something from somebody like me.
 
PCL_128 said:
Maybe so, but I'm not the new guy with 1000 TT. You would do well to learn from the "old-timers" rather than attacking them.
Click to expand...

Just because I wrote one thread challenging some of the assumptive old timers and calling out the space-wasters doesn't mean I don't listen to them the rest of the time. I spend most of my time enroute learning the CA's story and his interpretation of the industry and ins-and-outs of the airplane.

Assumptions never work well, man.

Seems to me like you're just taking potshots at someone who's challenging a group you like to think yourself a part of.
 
PCL_128 said:
How 'bout sit down, shut up, and learn something. What's with this rash of new guys that think they can tell all the experienced guys a thing or two? It's starting to get old.
Click to expand...

PCL I agree with some of the stuff you say but in the whole scheme of things you are new in this career as well. Not as new as most of us on here but newer than the majority of the pilots at the majors. You are just an FO with most of your experience coming from regionals yet your views are pretty strong. Is a new FO at Airtran with 4600 TT allowed to speak up to a Captain at a regional with 6000 TT?

I agree that your captain is ultimately your boss and you are there primarily to back him up. But that certainly doesn't mean that you can't disagree with them or have a friendly argument with them. The sit down shut up attitude has contributed to many accidents and incidents. How long have you been an FO at Airtran? Knowing your type from what you post on here I can't see you sitting down and shutting up if a Captain is going on about how terrible ALPA is and how s/he thinks they need a different union. In fact I would probably pay to be on that jumpseat and see how well you are at keeping your mouth shut.

Im not sure about Velo but why do all the more experienced guys like staple, Doug, 767driver and the other experienced mainline guys tend to steer clear of these threads? They have tons more experience than you and don't feel the need to push their views on everybody else.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Seems to me like you're just taking potshots at someone who's challenging a group you like to think yourself a part of.
Click to expand...

Actually, I don't consider myself part of the group you're attacking at all. I'm not an "old-timer." But I do find it ridiculous for a new guy to be attacking them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Rosstafari
Hey, pilots: make sure you have enough insurance. Mine just saved me from ruin.
2
Replies
21
Views
2K
derg
derg
barchaim
Possible to be Too Cautious/Conservative?
Replies
14
Views
708
form810
F
future pilot
Changing careers with a young family
Replies
13
Views
2K
galleycartinop
G
Murdoughnut
Dry January Follow-Up
Replies
5
Views
868
Beaker
Beaker
A300Capt
A little rant….
9 10 11
Replies
212
Views
12K
Richman
Richman
Back
Top