Hey, all you old-timers! RETIRE ALREADY!

[Velocipede]

Naw, I'm mostly tired of watching the old guys just marking time.

I'm tired of of the new kids not doing anything about it, either.

What are you or any other F/O going to do about it? Its a seniority system. The only ones who you're upsetting is yourself. Hey, if you don't want to fly with me, put me on your no-fly list. Its no skin off my nose.

How am I supposed to rabble-rouse to get the up and coming FOs to speak up for themselves if THEY'RE ALL TOO AFRAID?

Again, what are they (or you) going to do? Nothing.

I have to pay my dues, sure. I'm calling out the CAs that have paid their dues and now don't do anything with the position they've achieved.

You know, the ones that hold a really senior line and then drop it all.

Well, that's their right, a right accrued through seniority. When you have some, you'll understand.

You know, I expected a little more of a response out of you. Flame thrower out of gas?

Plenty of gas, slick. But, remember, I was once in your place, so I understand your frustration. Its frustrating seeing senior pilots picking up additional flying at time and a half, reducing the amount of trips available to be built into lines.

But, as long as they're doing it legally, within the contract, what do you really have to biatch about? And if you raise a big stink, what are you going to do when YOU'RE senior enough to do the same thing? If YOU pick up additional flying, doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

Getting wrapped around the axle about how OTHERS benefit from seniority just makes you look jealous and childish. You didn't do it in the military. Why are you doing it now?

 

[Firebird2XC]

What are you or any other F/O going to do about it? Its a seniority system. The only ones who you're upsetting is yourself. Hey, if you don't want to fly with me, put me on your no-fly list. Its no skin off my nose.



Again, what are they (or you) going to do? Nothing.



Well, that's their right, a right accrued through seniority. When you have some, you'll understand.



Plenty of gas, slick. But, remember, I was once in your place, so I understand your frustration. Its frustrating seeing senior pilots picking up additional flying at time and a half, reducing the amount of trips available to be built into lines.

But, as long as they're doing it legally, within the contract, what do you really have to biatch about? And if you raise a big stink, what are you going to do when YOU'RE senior enough to do the same thing? If YOU pick up additional flying, doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

Getting wrapped around the axle about how OTHERS benefit from seniority just makes you look jealous and childish. You didn't do it in the military. Why are you doing it now?

'Cause I said I would. Don't get me wrong- I'm not moaning about the Captains that make full use of their flying. I'm talking about the 'flying farmers' that don't really give a damn about the job- they're just sitting up there showing off their license at bars, taking up a spot at the top of the seniority list, and not actually doing any real amounts of flying.

In truth, I don't really think a whole lot of this applies to you.

>shrugs< I think the PFT thing kinda rings true though.

 

[sorrygottarunway]

For this week, I'm dyeing my hair gray and walking through IADs A terminal with an AARP magazine. I'm going to create a NEW demographic! The 23 year old going on 59, "stress of the industry made him that way" regional prop captain! Oh, and to Seggy-fy it a bit, I will have one swedish lady on my arm.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

I'm talking about the 'flying farmers' that don't really give a damn about the job- they're just sitting up there showing off their license at bars, taking up a spot at the top of the seniority list, and not actually doing any real amounts of flying.

I thought the whole idea was to climb the ladder and get paid to NOT fly. You bid what is available, and if it gives you alot of home time, even the better.:nana2:

 

[killbilly]

I'm pretty sure this was written tongue-in-cheek - at least, that's how I took it, and I thought it was pretty funny.

 

[Hacker15e]

'Cause I said I would. Don't get me wrong- I'm not moaning about the Captains that make full use of their flying. I'm talking about the 'flying farmers' that don't really give a damn about the job- they're just sitting up there showing off their license at bars, taking up a spot at the top of the seniority list, and not actually doing any real amounts of flying.

Are you serious about this whole diatribe, or are you just shoving a stick into the beehive to see what you can stir up?

The guys at the top of the seniority system deserve to be there and fly as little or as often as they want -- that's what a seniority system is for. I'm not sure I understand why you'd be irritated at that.

Besides...does anyone really 'care' about the job? It's not like you're putting iron on target in defense of grunts...it's a job. I will care about it enough to do the job professionally, but outside of that what else is there?

 

[Airdale]

Okay - I'll bite.

Charlie,

You're a good guy and you have good intentions. That being said - this post of yours is rather ridiculous. Humorous yes, a few good points yes, but overall I think you're biting off more then you can chew.

What you describe is much like the salty old Master Chief and Senior Chief sailors of the Coast Guard. They've been in the system so long, that they basically just sit back and do nothing, collect a paycheck and bark around at the young guys. Big deal. Gonna cry in your cereal about it?

What you need to do is stop analyzing everything about this industry. You're going to give yourself a heart attack. You complain about the old guys and how they scoped out the very jets that you're flying. I know 100% deep down inside you've got a big grin on your face everytime you strap into that cockpit. Don't lie, you love it. If it weren't for those old timers, you wouldn't be sitting in that jet.

To be perfectly honest, I'm GLAD they scoped out these Regional Jets. Because when I get to fly for a Major, I don't want to fly little jets! I want to fly big jets and make big bucks. I don't blame them one bit for scoping out these little Jet birds. If anything, I'm thankful that they did. They gave most of us JOBS! Not only that, we get to fly JET equipment much sooner in our careers. You want to curse them for all of this? Come on man, get real. These mainline guys didn't want to be flying our little jets. How nice of them to let them fall to the Regional level. I'm not talking about Pay either. Thats another issue, regional to Major.

Then you want to complain about the mainline guys falling back to the Regional ranks. Well I think they're earned that right. After all, they are partially responsible for you having your cushy little jet job. I agree though, that when mainline calls them back they should go. And if they choose not to go, then they should be appropriately placed in the seniority list. Maybe that would motivate them.

My point is - don't point fingers and pick fights with the Senior pilots. We're just young pups, we don't know squat. We've got a lot to learn and if you have an old senior pilot sitting next to you, pick his brain. Ask questions. I've got news for you - if you piss into the wind, you're going to get it on your pants. If you piss uphill, its going to roll downhill. Simple physics.

Being an Airline pilot is just a JOB dude. Its not my life. My life is my wife and my family and what I do when I'm not at work. I'm happy that I get fly airplanes and collect a paycheck. Isn't that WHY we got into this? Rather then constantly try and disect the very being of this industry, I'd rather spend my free time doing things I enjoy. Educate yourself about Unions and fight to change what needs to be changed.

You've been in this industry just as long as I have. Which is nothing. Come back and give everyone your opinion 10 years from now.

 

[Airdale]

Besides...does anyone really 'care' about the job? It's not like you're putting iron on target in defense of grunts...it's a job. I will care about it enough to do the job professionally, but outside of that what else is there?

That is EXACTLY how I feel man. Its just a friggin job. Once the "newness" wears off, 5 years from now you'll just care about how much you get paid and how little you fly. There are more important things in life then to bitch about the industry and the Regional Jets, and the Old Farts, and the blah blah blah. Lets fight for pay and work rules. We've got the jets, so lets get paid fairly to fly them. Thats all I care about.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

To be perfectly honest, I'm GLAD they scoped out these Regional Jets. Because when I get to fly for a Major, I don't want to fly little jets! I want to fly big jets and make big bucks. I don't blame them one bit for scoping out these little Jet birds. If anything, I'm thankful that they did. They gave most of us JOBS! Not only that, we get to fly JET equipment much sooner in our careers. You want to curse them for all of this? Come on man, get real. These mainline guys didn't want to be flying our little jets. How nice of them to let them fall to the Regional level. I'm not talking about Pay either. Thats another issue, regional to Major.

:banghead:

 

[Cruise]

To be perfectly honest, I'm GLAD they scoped out these Regional Jets. Because when I get to fly for a Major, I don't want to fly little jets! I want to fly big jets and make big bucks. I don't blame them one bit for scoping out these little Jet birds. If anything, I'm thankful that they did. They gave most of us JOBS! Not only that, we get to fly JET equipment much sooner in our careers. You want to curse them for all of this? Come on man, get real. These mainline guys didn't want to be flying our little jets. How nice of them to let them fall to the Regional level. I'm not talking about Pay either. Thats another issue, regional to Major.

:banghead:

:yeahthat:
Um, we'd still need to fly those plans and need pilots to staff them. What's the difference, you ask? Well, if they hadn't been 'scoped out,' we'd be flying them for the appropriate rate on the major seniority list. In other words, there'd be more jobs at the top....not in the trenches, where we are now!

 

[Nick]

Scope

To be perfectly honest, I'm GLAD they scoped out these Regional Jets. Because when I get to fly for a Major, I don't want to fly little jets! I want to fly big jets and make big bucks. I don't blame them one bit for scoping out these little Jet birds. If anything, I'm thankful that they did. They gave most of us JOBS! Not only that, we get to fly JET equipment much sooner in our careers. You want to curse them for all of this? Come on man, get real.

Alright, let's put on our critical thinking hats.

Because when I get to fly for a Major, I don't want to fly little jets! I want to fly big jets and make big bucks.

IF scope restricted contract flying to airplanes with less than 20 seats for all major air carriers, would the fleet size of these mainline carriers:

A) Be larger than they are today
B) Be smaller than they are today
C) Be the same size as they are today

They gave most of us JOBS!

What kind of jobs?

You said you want to got to a major. So can we assume that your job right now is not the kind of job you want for the remainder of your career? Probably.

So: why not? Why is your current job not the kind you want for the rest of your career.

Not only that, we get to fly JET equipment much sooner in our careers.

Does it really, truly matter to you that much to fly an airplane with a jet engine on it?


I did not post the multiple choice question and the underlined question in sarcasm. I would like to read your response to those to try and figure out the logic.

Here is a quote that I'm reminded of reading your post:

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.”
Martin Niemoeller

I am reminded of it because it is the same type of progression that can happen in what percentage of the airlines are mainline and what percentage is contract. If you scope and scope and scope everything out, what is left?

 

[Airdale]

Re: Scope

Alright, let's put on our critical thinking hats.



IF scope restricted contract flying to airplanes with less than 20 seats for all major air carriers, would the fleet size of these mainline carriers:

A) Be larger than they are today

Of course they would be larger. Crying about it now and pissing uphill won't solve it. I fail to see how that "fixes" anything.?

You said you want to got to a major. So can we assume that your job right now is not the kind of job you want for the remainder of your career? Probably.

So: why not? Why is your current job not the kind you want for the rest of your career.

Because its outsourced. My job could go to the next lowest bidder in 2018, then what? Not that you are safe from losing your job at a Major, because they have furloughed more pilots then the Regionals have, but I still think you're chances for stability are better.

Does it really, truly matter to you that much to fly an airplane with a jet engine on it?

Pay me well enough, I'll fly a kite. But the fact is that currently, flying jet aircraft pays better (excluding Horizon). I would also say that is a lot more comfortable then the Beech 1900 I was flying. Plus I get flight attendants this time and don't have to wear a space age headset to protect my hearing. I remember when Charlie was chomping at the bit to leave Colgan he was drooling over flying a jet. I'm more concerned about the company, the pay and my quality of life. Just so happens the equipment I fly is comfortable, quiet and very advanced in technology. I don't see anything wrong with enjoying that.

I am reminded of it because it is the same type of progression that can happen in what percentage of the airlines are mainline and what percentage is contract. If you scope and scope and scope everything out, what is left?

Nothing. I'm not saying that I like the fact that the Majors have scoped out much of their flying. It would be nice to start your 121 career with a Mainline seniority number. My point is - what are we going to do about it? Piss and moan...cry about how the old senior pilots ruined it for us? Give me a break. The industry is what it is.

Everyone knows I am pro-union, especially ALPA. I certainly believe in fighting for and uniting under one cause. But lets get real here. There are too many Gulfstream/GoJet/Skybus/Name your industry destroying company HERE pilots out there. Someday with a bit more experience, I will become active in our company Union. I will fight to change the things that can be changed.

Too many guys dwell on the past and how this happened and how that happened. All the while their sipping their coffee in a cushy little JET job chatting it up with the Flight Attendants and reading their USA Today. Hypocrites is what I call them.

While it would be nice to get a mainline number flying these little jets, that isn't the case and it won't be the case. So I'll take what I can get and enjoy the flying. There are more important things in life then to worry about this and that with this industry. I certainly won't sit here and cry about how the Old salty pilots ruined my career! If it weren't for them, I'd still be flying 172's.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: Scope

That's just defeatism. It can be changed. There are possible solutions. But if you just sit back and accept the BS, then nothing will ever get better.

 

[Airdale]

Re: Scope

That's just defeatism. It can be changed. There are possible solutions. But if you just sit back and accept the BS, then nothing will ever get better.

I just don't see how it is possible - unless the industry was RE-regulated. Which I would be all for. I would be in all support of a National Seniority list. It won't happen though, not when you've got pilots paying for jobs, crossing pickets lines, going to work for SKYBUS operations. These are not pilots I want to share a Seniority list with and they certainly don't give a crap about anyone else.

I don't want it to be perceived that I am someone who wouldn't participate to help change things or be proactive for the cause. I am merely someone who is happy at the opportunity to fly what I have, get paid to do it and be enjoy my job. I will fight for anything to help change our future here, but if a Major won't hire me and I have the opportunity to fly a cool airplane with decent pay I'm going to take it and not throw stones at those who gave me the opportunity.

And I KNOW a lot of people have the same thoughts, I just happen to be the one to speak it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: Scope

There doesn't have to be re-regulation or a single seniority list to fix this problem. The problem can be solved through a slow and systematic process of flow-through agreements, tightening scope, and moving towards single lists for each brand, aka "family scope" as Duane used to call it. This can be done. It's not really that difficult.

 

[meyers9163]

Wow. I have no comment. Popcorn anyone?

PLEASE!!!!

 

[kellwolf]

Airdale, you're already seeing it happen.....look at Delta. They're cutting their regional feed. Why? B/c it's better and more economic for them to run an MD-88 rather than 2 or 3 RJs on a route. As the price of gas goes higher, frequency is gonna go down the crapper. You'll see bigger planes on routes. Ya know what? That's GOOD. Means more jobs at the major level.

You'd berate a guy for saying "I don't wanna fly TPs, I wanna fly jets," but you essentially made the same comment with your "I don't wanna fly little jets at a major" statement. I'd HAPPILY fly a CRJ-200 at a major airline. Why? Job security, better work rules and better pay. I don't care what size the airplane is as long as I've got those three.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Are you serious about this whole diatribe, or are you just shoving a stick into the beehive to see what you can stir up?

The guys at the top of the seniority system deserve to be there and fly as little or as often as they want -- that's what a seniority system is for. I'm not sure I understand why you'd be irritated at that.

Besides...does anyone really 'care' about the job? It's not like you're putting iron on target in defense of grunts...it's a job. I will care about it enough to do the job professionally, but outside of that what else is there?

I'm not entirely serious (at least about some stuff).. just throwing some of the things I hear the old captains say back at them. They've sat around with their crystal ball of whatnot forever and think they know everything. I figured a little bit of self evaluation might be in order.

If these are the guys that are chairing my union committees, and that are teaching me how to do it tomorrow, I want them on their toes. I see far too many sitting back and chuckling at the new guys trying to get their bearings.

I was hoping that if somebody put a few tracers past them, those of them that AREN'T bringing their 'A game' will wake up and do it. I'm sure a good number are- I've worked with them, too. I just want the guys that are grumbling to actually say something useful.

I can't make those on the top of the seniority lists DO anything, but I can remind them that they're being watched.

 

[Velocipede]

Just don't forget, most of us are sitting back watching the stupid mistakes you noobs make. We're only laughing because we've been there, done that.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Okay - I'll bite.

Charlie,

You're a good guy and you have good intentions. That being said - this post of yours is rather ridiculous. Humorous yes, a few good points yes, but overall I think you're biting off more then you can chew.

....
at the young guys. Big deal. Gonna cry in your cereal about it?
....
What you need to do is stop analyzing everything about this industry. You're going to give yourself a heart attack. You complain about the old guys and how they scoped out the very jets that you're flying. I know 100% deep down inside you've got a big grin on your face everytime you strap into that cockpit. Don't lie, you love it. If it weren't for those old timers, you wouldn't be sitting in that jet.
....
Then you want to complain about the mainline guys falling back to the Regional ranks. Well I think they're earned that right. After all, they are partially responsible for you having your cushy little jet job. I agree though, that when mainline calls them back they should go. And if they choose not to go, then they should be appropriately placed in the seniority list. Maybe that would motivate them.


You've been in this industry just as long as I have. Which is nothing. Come back and give everyone your opinion 10 years from now.

I'm not crying in my cereal- I'm telling THEM to stop crying in THEIR cereal. The created a whole new sub-class of airline pilots. So now what? They have to deal with it, and so do we. Everytime I hear somebody moan about RJs I think what they must have said when they signed away the scope covering them. I'M not bemoaning having a job- I'm bemoaning the guys whining about the nature of the industry when they, themselves, created it.

The mainline guys don't have the RIGHT to flow back into our seniority lists- is that where they came from? NO. If they want to negotiate the right, that's another thing. MY beef was that when the situation was reversed, they crap on us. It's happened at more than one carrier. It will happen again.

As for my 'constant analysis' of the industry, no, I won't stop. I'm going to keep challenging MY assumptions, as well as OTHER'S assumptions. This isn't just a job, it IS my life. I choose to spend my off time learning about what I'm passionate about. I understand you're passionate about your life outside of flying- good for you. Personally, though, I think me basing my life around your wife would get confusing. I'll leave that to you- she's your wife. I'll stick with airplanes and union stuff.

I picked the job I have, and yes, part of the decision DID have to do with flying a jet. I wanted to learn something new, and work less hard doing it in the day to day. If CJC hadn't SUCKED SO HARD, however, I'd probably be there. If they hadn't set me up with a bait and switch routine (involuntary extended equipment lock, anyone?) I'd probably still be there. To base your statements on me going to AE solely to fly a jet is to underestimate the other forces in my life. You didn't leave CJC for a jet, did you? I know you didn't. How arrogant to make that assumption about me because I'm single.


.. and yeah, I've been in this industry about 30 seconds, just like you.. I, however, will not sit back while others make decisions for me and smile because of my position in the seniority list. I'm going to remind them that I'm breathing down their necks, and they'd better remember me, too. They need me just as much as I need them.

This is MY life, just as much as theirs, even if they get first pick when the spoils of our labors are divided.