Hero pilot: Airlines in shambles

bafanguy said:
As for people not returning to the profession after furlough, I assume he's talking about USAir furloughs not returning to USAir...and I bet they didn't !! Few have been raped like the USAir pilots. Why go back to another round of beatings if you can fly elsewhere.
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I'd be willing to bet it's far more than just USAir. Sure the pilots been beatup a lot, but so have a lot of other people at other airlines. And if you've been at one airline for years, I doubt you'd be willing to switch to a new one and go back to the beginners' wages.
 
Number1atNumber2 said:
. And if you've been at one airline for years, I doubt you'd be willing to switch to a new one and go back to the beginners' wages.
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That also could be. One's ability to avoid such a return to beginner's wages, and switch to a non-flying career, would depend on what non-aviation skills, education and experience he had. And, whether those things were marketable at the time.

There would be lot of variability in the cases of this with some landing on their feet in a non-aviation field and some hoping to get the beginner's wages.

It's a jungle out there.
 
bafanguy said:
It hasn't been documented that the furloughs went into other professions than airline pilot. So his contention that people have left the profession may be correct but just hasn't been documented. I'd love to see the data.
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I don't claim to have any data, or anything more then just anecdotal evidence. But, I do keep in touch with quite a few airline pilots and ex airline pilots. (Try to spend 12 years at six or seven airlines and NOT have a strong network of friends and connections).

Based on those of us who were furloughed in Round 1 (post 9/11), at least 30% of my peers left the AIRLINE industry. Of those, 20%-25% are still flying, whether it be corporate, fractional, freight, etc. But there are a handful who simply aren't flying at all.

Nonetheless a 30% "dropout rate" among professional aviators is nothing to sneeze at. Like I said though, just anecdotal. No firm numbers to offer you.

OH -- and by the way. Just in case anyone questions my sanity for having GONE to US Airways in early 1999. That airline had not hired in 7 years... so I was getting in on the leading edge of a hiring boom that, by 2001 exceeded 1,149 pilots. Retirement projections indicated that I would retire #1 in the company on the A330 or equivalent. And payrates at the company were industry leading for the equipment at the time.

So given the same information, i'd have made the same choice. Making the choice whether to go back to US Airways or not was NOT as simple a choice as you make it out to be.
 
Snoopy2 said:
Kudos to Sully for a fine water landing but that does not equate to him being a "great man".
Just a tad over the top.
Let Sully prove his greatness in the coming years by being a humble advocate.
So far the jury is still out.....
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Actually, in my humble opinion, his life leading up to that spectacular water landing was the stuff of a great man. Now, he could take his book deal and forget dealing with the potential political ramifications in exposing a controversial but ugly truth. Instead, he heroically uses the bully pulpit he initially resisted to point out the degradation of our profession.

That takes more courage than saving your own life (along with the other 154 people) in an emergency.
 
flywithUS said:
But how many of those parents pushed their kid into becoming a pilot? If I had to take a guess, I would bet most of those parents would prefer their kids to do something else.
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I hate to ever hear of a parent that "pushed" their kid into any profession. I have seen it though...mostly when I went to Cornell.

What I meant was, I have met airline pilots and their kids, coming into this flight school for a tour or first day, and the parents seem extremely supportive of their kids' choice, and proud of their profession. It seemed like Sully was just trying to prove a point to congress, but perhaps a bit overstated. Then again, when anyone speaks in infinites, I tend to degrade the worth of the statement anyway.

Kudos to Sully for a fine water landing but that does not equate to him being a "great man".
Just a tad over the top.
Let Sully prove his greatness in the coming years by being a humble advocate.
So far the jury is still out.....
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We are all entitled to our own opinions...

Actually, in my humble opinion, his life leading up to that spectacular water landing was the stuff of a great man. Now, he could take his book deal and forget dealing with the potential political ramifications in exposing a controversial but ugly truth. Instead, he heroically uses the bully pulpit he initially resisted to point out the degradation of our profession.

That takes more courage than saving your own life (along with the other 154 people) in an emergency.
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But I am with the Bee here.
 
Let Sully prove his greatness in the coming years by being a humble advocate.
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What a pompous statement.

I'd say Sully is the consummate professional.
He resisted the "hero" moniker that was pushed on him.
He's constantly diverting the light from himself to shine on the rest of the crew.
He only started appearing on the circuit when he realized people are clinging to good news in these dour times.
Now he is using his time in the spotlight to advocate on all airline pilots behalf.

If all that still doesn't add up to greatness, you got some funny math...

Cheers
George
 
bafanguy said:
Well, I'd like to see the data supporting those sweeping statements.

There are few professions or jobs I can cite that do not have downturns, reverses and disappointments. Even if you own your own business, you are subject to reverses.

Flying for a living is no different in that regard. We have a few considerations others don't ( i.e. medicals that will end your career ) but in the Big Picture, we are no different from any other in being pawns, to a degree, in a bigger scheme that isn't to our advantage every moment: this is just life. And life is often messy.

The idea that todays' experience levels are the product of efforts made years ago is correct. And, that will be a correct statement 30 years from now because life is a rolling continuum.

As for wanting your kids to be airline pilots, you shouldn't WANT you kids to be anything but something that makes them happy, self-sufficient, productive members of society who can look back at the end of their working lives and be happy they went down that road, whatever it was.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but saying that the profession no longer attracts "..the best and brightest..." would mean that many, if not most, of the people on this forum who aspire to be an airline pilot are not "...the best and brightest...".

I'm not prepared to make that statement and don't see how Sully can either.
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The brightest, by nature, don't pay $100k for a job that pays $19k. Passionate, probably - bright, negative.
 
georgetg said:
What a pompous statement.

I'd say Sully is the consummate professional.
He resisted the "hero" moniker that was pushed on him.
He's constantly diverting the light from himself to shine on the rest of the crew.
He only started appearing on the circuit when he realized people are clinging to good news in these dour times.
Now he is using his time in the spotlight to advocate on all airline pilots behalf.

If all that still doesn't add up to greatness, you got some funny math...

Cheers
George
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\
Hey man howya doin?! Good to see you around:)
 
The brightest, by nature, don't pay $100k for a job that pays $19k. Passionate, probably - bright, negative.
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hahaha, couldn't agree more with this statement. A $100K goes a long way any other time except in aviation...
 
bafanguy said:
There are few professions or jobs I can cite that do not have downturns, reverses and disappointments. Even if you own your own business, you are subject to reverses.

Flying for a living is no different in that regard.



I'm sorry to have to say this, but saying that the profession no longer attracts "..the best and brightest..." would mean that many, if not most, of the people on this forum who aspire to be an airline pilot are not "...the best and brightest...".
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The difference is this: Over time (a 30-40 year career) Sully has observed the up/down cycle over and over. What he realizes, and until you have been through several cycles is the fact that each down cycle is bigger than each up cycle. Over time losses are never recovered. There is nothing to stop this trend that has been established and continuing since 1978.

Anyone who enters this career takes a snapshot and determines "The reward is worth the effort". Many on this forum took their "snapshot" prior to "today". Many would not be here if they took their "snapshot" "today". Sully is looking forward. He is not saying "you" (or anyone on this board) is a moron. He is projecting into the future, based on the trend line, which is down, and has no end in sight. Would you be here if the top of scale, all you could ever hope for pay was 50K per year? How will you feel if when you get to retirement age that's all there is? That's where we are headed.

Sully is doing the best service he could ever do for the profession. You should thank him and shine his shoes.:banghead:


And it's not new.......... http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/53768-expectations-how-save-5-airline-ticket.html
 
ZapBrannigan said:
I don't claim to have any data, or anything more then just anecdotal evidence.

Nonetheless a 30% "dropout rate" among professional aviators is nothing to sneeze at. Like I said though, just anecdotal. No firm numbers to offer you.

Making the choice whether to go back to US Airways or not was NOT as simple a choice as you make it out to be.
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Zap,

I did my 35 years in the airline biz like many others and, like you, can only offer the anecdotal data from my choices and that of my friends: 100% of us were laid off at one time or another and 100% returned to their original carrier or opted for "beginner wages" at another similar carrier.

And, I'm sure your decision regarding USAir was very difficult.

There's bound to be lots of variations in individual experiences. That's why it'd be interesting to see some accurate, overall industry data. Maybe that's what the young people considering a flying career need to see. But, I still say every career choice will have rough spots...even involving an overall drop in pay, benefits, status, etc. Even my surgeon neighbor said medicine is a long way from what it used to be when he chose it as a profession.

murdoughnut, now that I'm looking back from the end of a life time of working, I'd rather have a career that I had approached with a bit of passion than something I'd spent 35 years sleepwalking through.

Different stroke for different folks...no right or wrong answers.

By the way, seaav8tor, I do appreciate what Sullenburger has been able to do for aviation. But at this point, he is merely being exploited...trotted out like an entrant in the Westchester Dog Show...and that is beneath his dignity.
 
bafanguy said:
I'm sorry to have to say this, but saying that the profession no longer attracts "..the best and brightest..." would mean that many, if not most, of the people on this forum who aspire to be an airline pilot are not "...the best and brightest...".

I'm not prepared to make that statement and don't see how Sully can either.
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While I can say that some of the newer airline pilots are real up-and-comers and have their act together, there are people that do not.

I talk to the crusty old captain types that have been-there-done-that as often as I can about it. Things captains have told me about junior first officers (at any given airline...) Some of them just aren't quite getting it.

When Sully says that the airline are not always attracting the best and brightest, he's right. Pilots getting hired with as little as 200 hours with a wet part 141 commercial ticket are still green. Some will thrive and rise to the challenge, many will be too immature in their growth as aviators.

Perhaps some of the people even here on this forum are not the 'best and brightest'. For the most part, it seems like we've got a high-end sample of the population, though. All the same, we've got to deal with the fact that some just can't quite cut it.

Sully's right, and we should back him. His hero status is a chance for us to get our collective voice heard. The timing in Washington and the spirit of change makes it possible that his words won't fall on deaf ears.

I'll back him, all the way.

Sully, FTW! :rawk:
 
Firebird2XC said:
While I can say that some of the newer airline pilots are real up-and-comers and have their act together, there are people that do not.

I talk to the crusty old captain types that have been-there-done-that as often as I can about it. Things captains have told me about junior first officers (at any given airline...) Some of them just aren't quite getting it.

When Sully says that the airline are not always attracting the best and brightest, he's right. Pilots getting hired with as little as 200 hours with a wet part 141 commercial ticket are still green. Some will thrive and rise to the challenge, many will be too immature in their growth as aviators.

Perhaps some of the people even here on this forum are not the 'best and brightest'. For the most part, it seems like we've got a high-end sample of the population, though. All the same, we've got to deal with the fact that some just can't quite cut it.

Sully's right, and we should back him. His hero status is a chance for us to get our collective voice heard. The timing in Washington and the spirit of change makes it possible that his words won't fall on deaf ears.

I'll back him, all the way.

Sully, FTW! :rawk:
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Firebird,

First of all, I back Sullenberger 110%. He's done something remarkable and is getting to use his unintended public access to air some issues most of us have known about for a long time; this can't hurt. He should be listened to because he has the "street cred". I just hate to see politicians and media exploit someone of his stature, that's all.

I'm not sure I agree with all of his remarks and never thought he was calling anyone a "moron". But, his remarks are important because they start a discussion about aviation that the young people in particular need to hear. There are few decisions as important as the choice of a career and given the passage of enough time, it's gets hard (but not impossible) to undo.

I'm not much inclined to enter anything but a gentlemanly discussion (too lazy for anything below that level :D) but I kinda think this is an important one.

There are no universal right or wrong answers.

About the "...crusty old..." factor, maybe I can add some unsolicited comments to what you've gotten from my fellow C & O's. Everyone has 200 hours at some point and a few will "get it" then but most won't. I don't know that one can say they are "...too immature in their growth as aviators." How would you know ? They've hardly begun to grow.

Should a 200 hour pilot be in an airliner ( and how many actually do that ?) ? I don't know. But, at least they have access to the experience, knowledge and training of a more experience person in the captain. We all learn to fly by flying so having input from an experienced captain is a significant part of one's education.

I can tell you there are the occasional FOs with a lot more than 200 hours who don't "get it." Fortunately, they are a small number. When I was an FO, the C & Os I flew with were the WW2 and Korean War types and they too were complaining about the occasional FO who didn't "get it". Heck, they were probably talking about me at one time or another.:o There is very little that's new about human behavior.

Got a bit off messsage. I back Sullenberger all the way and respect his stature, experience and point of view. I think some good things will come from all of this because it'll start the discussion about flying as a career.

If this scares some people away from it, that too serves a good purpose.
 
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