Guess they didn't learn the first time.. Delta's new KSEA-PAJN run.

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Capt. Chaos said:
Alaska's RNP: RVR 5000 with a DA of 336ft at the runway threshold.

VS.

Delta LDA Z: 2 miles vis and MDA of 1000ft and the MAP 3.2 miles from the runway.

Nothing manufactured there.
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Which amounts to nothing conclusive.

Throw in an interim approach to please the Feds, fly the route, collect data, refine your operation.

At the end of the day, the whole mystique of hard-grizzled pilots flying into Alaska where only the best of the best is legend as much as highly-advanced, pilots flying airplanes with laser-ring gyros and FMGEC's navigating across the black, wet ocean in the middle of the night is nothing more than self-proclaimed ego?

Probably. Airplane, rocks, water, clouds. Don't break or hit anything besides the runway, in the touchdown zone, at a respectable descent rate.

It's something the solo pilot in a beat up Tomahawk on a grass strip "up" to the A-380 pilot flying into Shenzhen does every day.

Some with better results than others.

Lighten up folks, it's just another damned airport. I'm not as special as I think I am and neither are the folks that think they are for flying into Juneau.
 
Yeah, see, train. When you make affirmative statements like "Alaska is dangerous because you're a bunch of stupid cowboys", people tend to tune you out.

I mean, I don't have anything even approaching a dog in this fight. I hope nobody ever crashes again anywhere on earth. What color the airplanes are isn't even mildly interesting to me. And I don't have any firsthand idea of what flying in Alaska is like, as I've never been there. I think Calgary is about as close as I've gotten.

But if I WERE to go fly in Alaska, I think I might listen to people who have done it, rather than hold forth with my sainted Opinions.
 
@Boris Badenov - I took it more as sarcasm. You really have to read the post in @jtrain609's voice and it makes sense.

I read the overall premise as "Silly big airline wanting to fly into a place where they can't possibly succeed because there are rocks and special procedures that only the anointed airline and a small cadre of local pilots can only do".

My perspective says, "Well, they used to fly there before and, knowing a little about how they roll into special airports, they'll be just fine"

At the end of the day, who cares. There are a lot of places with terrain, limited navigation capabilities and special considerations. If there's money to be made, they're going to do what it takes to stack that cheddar.

If I put you in the box and had you fly the RNP into Quito, you will absolutely dick it up, probably on the missed approach. But if you see it in the simulator, talk about places where you will screw up, fly it, see the screw up, fly it again and then hit it a few times, you won't.

How this is supposedly "special" absolutely confounds me.
 
Derg said:
You really have to read the post in @jtrain609's voice and it makes sense.
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Crap, you're right. I read it in the voice of a twelve year old girl and I was like "Oh, yeah, that makes sense!"

Thanks! Generally agree with the rest, too. Especially the part about how it's a ridiculous conversation. It seems to me that 90% of the people posting basically agree with each other, but some darned kids keep lighting poop-bags on doorsteps.
 
Derg said:
Which amounts to nothing conclusive.

Throw in an interim approach to please the Feds, fly the route, collect data, refine your operation.

At the end of the day, the whole mystique of hard-grizzled pilots flying into Alaska where only the best of the best is legend as much as highly-advanced, pilots flying airplanes with laser-ring gyros and FMGEC's navigating across the black, wet ocean in the middle of the night is nothing more than self-proclaimed ego?

Probably. Airplane, rocks, water, clouds. Don't break or hit anything besides the runway, in the touchdown zone, at a respectable descent rate.

It's something the solo pilot in a beat up Tomahawk on a grass strip "up" to the A-380 pilot flying into Shenzhen does every day.

Some with better results than others.

Lighten up folks, it's just another damned airport. I'm not as special as I think I am and neither are the folks that think they are for flying into Juneau.
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Still not sure why the 121 respondents trod out the same old responses, trying to roll in Alaska 135 mentality, how Delta does things in other places, etc. The fact remains that Delta will be using a higher min's approach this summer and
jtrain609 said:
If you take part 121 operating rules, stick to SOP, and do your job properly (by doing things like going around at minimums if you don't see the runway),
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that will be a big factor in reliability.

Now if Delta really wanted to stick it to Alaska why didn't they start with Ketchikan? It would have offered a much easier start up, with no special approaches or departures required to offer a equal service.
 
Capt. Chaos said:
Still not sure why the 121 respondents trod out the same old responses, trying to roll in Alaska 135 mentality, how Delta does things in other places, etc. The fact remains that Delta will be using a higher min's approach this summer and that will be a big factor in reliability.

Now if Delta really wanted to stick it to Alaska why didn't they start with Ketchikan? It would have offered a much easier start up, with no special approaches or departures required to offer a equal service.
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Less gate space in KTN.
 
So I'm thinking there is a big huge misunderstanding going on here.

I haven't head any of the Alaska Mafia (I'd say Eskimo Mafia but that was used in FI or APC the other day and got shot down as being racist) saying that Delta DOESN'T have the ability to fly in to JNU. All I hear them saying is that the time frame that Marketing has put together for them to fly in there isn't realistic due to the need to get a special approach set up. Even when you throw lots of money at a problem, the FAA still only works as fast as the FAA works. If Delta can't get approval for a low mins approach in time for the summer season they WILL end up diverting/canceling a lot of their flights which WILL tick off the very loyal to Alaska Airlines locals who WILL avoid booking Delta in the future.

But the Delta (and United!) guys have gotten a bit touchy about their abilities and now we've got 19 pages of guys talking right by each other.
 
Roger Roger said:
Careful, he doesn't like being outed for some reason.
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I wasn't outing anybody. Lots of people have been peeing in a hurricane in this thread.

31954089.jpg
 
Capt. Chaos said:
Still not sure why the 121 respondents trod out the same old responses, trying to roll in Alaska 135 mentality, how Delta does things in other places, etc. The fact remains that Delta will be using a higher min's approach this summer and that will be a big factor in reliability.

Now if Delta really wanted to stick it to Alaska why didn't they start with Ketchikan? It would have offered a much easier start up, with no special approaches or departures required to offer a equal service.
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How do you know it's not simply an interim approach? Perhaps there are two, three, four? Maybe it's a staged phase-out of approaches, one to whet the whistle, and then the next after more bases are trained with the new procedure?

I literally have no idea while simultaneously knowing people involved with the process. But I'd gather to say that if I'm just taking the 'wait and see' perspective, I'd probably warn against anything beyond that on the internet.
 
just because an airplane says "Alaska" on the side of it, doesn't mean a guy from the state of Alaska is flying it. A whole lot of Alaska Air crews fly into Juneau that live outside of Alaska and wouldn't qualify as a "grizzled" Alaskan (state) pilots.
 
nwpac said:
just because an airplane says "Alaska" on the side of it, doesn't mean a guy from the state of Alaska is flying it. A whole lot of Alaska Air crews fly into Juneau that live outside of Alaska and wouldn't qualify as a "grizzled" Alaskan (state) pilots.
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And at the end of the day… who cares.

It's an airplane and a runway. If it was that much of a Herculean challenge to operate there, the FAA probably wouldn't even allow 121 ops there.
 
NVM, that was a silly statement. It's the wine talking.

But I stand by the "it's an airport, big flipping deal".
 
nwpac said:
just because an airplane says "Alaska" on the side of it, doesn't mean a guy from the state of Alaska is flying it. A whole lot of Alaska Air crews fly into Juneau that live outside of Alaska and wouldn't qualify as a "grizzled" Alaskan (state) pilots.
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Sigh.
 
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