GoJet Airlines
- Thread starter Airdale
- Start date
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
ALPA doesn't publish minutes from negotiating sessions. What you're looking for isn't available. You have a simple choice: believe the union reps, or believe the scum-sucking managers.
In case you haven't noticed, we don't have any TSA MEC members on this board. What you do have is a union rep that worked closely with members of the TSA MEC and with ALPA National. I was in a position to know exactly what happened, even though I personally didn't handle the negotiations. Again, if that's not enough for you, then that's you choice. Most people will take it at face value, however.
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
Such as.....????
You've given one faulty reason (APA scope), which is proven invalid by the existence republic's operation which exists in the same system.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
Never going to happen?
Just think back to the whole jewish thing. You where 100% sure of your facts but I dispute all of them.
aloft
New Member
Yeah...because TSA's and RAH's contracts with AMR are identical....like you'd even know what's in those contracts.
aloft
New Member
I haven't even formed an opinion on GoJet, much less espoused it as fact, so why do I need credibility here? I'm simply asking questions, and for the most part, getting high school sophomore answers.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Aloft,
I've been searching for hours for your *proof*. Problem is, a lot of the articles/NMB paperwork is scattered all over the place.
If you've got time, here are some links that paint the picture everyone has been trying to.
2005 - ALPA files suit against TSA Holdings, citing that GoJet and TSA are operated as one carrier etc. etc. etc.
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf
ALPA Article (2006) Regarding contract negotiations. And I quote:
" Capt. Tom Wychor, the MEC chairman for the Mesaba pilot group, continued the lambasting against Trans States management. “In my ten years as an MEC chairman, I have seen some disgusting, pathetic behavior. But the rat running this company takes the cake. He also takes your hard-earned money; he takes your future through GoJet. But most abhorrently, he took the jobs from five of your elected ALPA officers when he fired them for representing their brothers and sisters here at Trans States.”
Link http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...sView.aspx?itemid=9491&ModuleId=8300&Tabid=73
Airline Bulletin December 24, 2006 :
'Another example of a company that might succumb to competitive pressures is Trans States Airlines. Trans States has contracts to operate 50-seat regional jets, as well as some older turboprops. The company that owns Trans States Airlines, Trans States Holdings, also owns a subsidiary, that might survive a shakeout, GoJet Airlines, which operates 70-seat regional jets for United. GoJet was formed initially to skirt union rules at Trans States and save money, but pilots at GoJet have since tried to unionize."
Link: Will a Shakeout Occur With Second Tier Regional Lift Providers? ( http://www.airlinebulletin.com/2006/12/index.html)
ALPA Release News, May 10, 2005 :
"In response to this tactic, we have been forced to file a grievance concerning this alter-ego carrier, because management has made it clear that GoJet exists solely to evade ALPA and the TSA-ALPA agreement. The clearest proof? Management's premature and illegal attempt to install a separate union before GoJet employs any pilots or begins operations. While management's public claim that a contractual restriction makes it impossible to extend the ALPA contract to larger jets, I assure you that we can readily overcome this very common obstacle,"
Link: http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...umentsDownload.aspx?itemid=1499&ModuleId=1458
Dude, I don't know what kind of *proof* you're looking for, but if you spend hours on the internet, I think you can piece the puzzle together. Their own pilot groups can't even get along, why is that? You're not going to find anywhere a TSA Holdings written letter stating why the real reason they created GoJet.
You're smart, piece it together and lay down your argument. Unless you need more proof then what I have supplied.
I've been searching for hours for your *proof*. Problem is, a lot of the articles/NMB paperwork is scattered all over the place.
If you've got time, here are some links that paint the picture everyone has been trying to.
2005 - ALPA files suit against TSA Holdings, citing that GoJet and TSA are operated as one carrier etc. etc. etc.
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf
ALPA Article (2006) Regarding contract negotiations. And I quote:
" Capt. Tom Wychor, the MEC chairman for the Mesaba pilot group, continued the lambasting against Trans States management. “In my ten years as an MEC chairman, I have seen some disgusting, pathetic behavior. But the rat running this company takes the cake. He also takes your hard-earned money; he takes your future through GoJet. But most abhorrently, he took the jobs from five of your elected ALPA officers when he fired them for representing their brothers and sisters here at Trans States.”
Link http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...sView.aspx?itemid=9491&ModuleId=8300&Tabid=73
Airline Bulletin December 24, 2006 :
'Another example of a company that might succumb to competitive pressures is Trans States Airlines. Trans States has contracts to operate 50-seat regional jets, as well as some older turboprops. The company that owns Trans States Airlines, Trans States Holdings, also owns a subsidiary, that might survive a shakeout, GoJet Airlines, which operates 70-seat regional jets for United. GoJet was formed initially to skirt union rules at Trans States and save money, but pilots at GoJet have since tried to unionize."
Link: Will a Shakeout Occur With Second Tier Regional Lift Providers? ( http://www.airlinebulletin.com/2006/12/index.html)
ALPA Release News, May 10, 2005 :
"In response to this tactic, we have been forced to file a grievance concerning this alter-ego carrier, because management has made it clear that GoJet exists solely to evade ALPA and the TSA-ALPA agreement. The clearest proof? Management's premature and illegal attempt to install a separate union before GoJet employs any pilots or begins operations. While management's public claim that a contractual restriction makes it impossible to extend the ALPA contract to larger jets, I assure you that we can readily overcome this very common obstacle,"
Link: http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...umentsDownload.aspx?itemid=1499&ModuleId=1458
Dude, I don't know what kind of *proof* you're looking for, but if you spend hours on the internet, I think you can piece the puzzle together. Their own pilot groups can't even get along, why is that? You're not going to find anywhere a TSA Holdings written letter stating why the real reason they created GoJet.
You're smart, piece it together and lay down your argument. Unless you need more proof then what I have supplied.
I was just looking at this is an older gojets thread within the forum (if you search back to 2005, it's there!)
anyways, they claim that it was because of the AA contract that they created gojets since the AA contract said TSA couldn't have planes larger than 50 seats....i find that awfully hard to believe since everyone and their mother at the time wanted larger planes for lower wages!! that's just obvious clue.
SIUAv8r
RJ Commander
Kristie,
You are exactly right. AA won't allow anything larger than 50 seats (except for Eagle). When RAH originally aquired the E-170, it was on the Chautauqua certificate. CHQ paid for it dearly, to the tune of around $10,000 per day, if memory serves correctly. Hence the aquisition of Shuttle America and the creation of Republic Airlines, in order to get the 170's on new certificates. I think my history lesson is accurate...
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It's true that the AA contract didn't allow the TSA certificate to have aircraft larger than 50 seats, but TSA Holdings could have used the GoJet certificate with the same pilot group. RAH uses three different certificates to get around scope restrictions, but they use one seniority list and one pilot group. This is what TSA could have done, but they decided to create an alter-ego carrier instead to bust the union.
Tram
Well-Known Member
Man, I'd love to meet you... Simply to find out if you have as much hardcore bravado in person as you do on the internet....
aloft
New Member
Aloft,
I've been searching for hours for your *proof*. Problem is, a lot of the articles/NMB paperwork is scattered all over the place.
If you've got time, here are some links that paint the picture everyone has been trying to.
......
Dude, I don't know what kind of *proof* you're looking for, but if you spend hours on the internet, I think you can piece the puzzle together. Their own pilot groups can't even get along, why is that? You're not going to find anywhere a TSA Holdings written letter stating why the real reason they created GoJet.
You're smart, piece it together and lay down your argument. Unless you need more proof then what I have supplied.
My sincere thanks for your research efforts. It's truly appreciated. I did in fact look at some of those links a day or two ago, and while informative, virtually all the stuff from ALPA is suspect for bias as they aren't exactly a disinterested party; they're EXPECTED to advocate for the TSA pilots, regardless. (Kinda like an attorney who swears up and down in court that his client is innocent, when he knows otherwise.)
All I can say at this juncture is that I've encountered conflicting stories and I am not sure what to believe.
Still, hard to believe taking a job with the company is as bad as taking one at, say, Mesa.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
aloft
New Member
Um, it's my understanding they tried to go this route, but the TSA pilot group turned them down....three times.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
The problem is, I just don't think you are going to find proof of what happened without going to a NMB website (which is only going to state facts and never will you see a "fact" that Gojet was created to circumvent the TSA Union. Management will never admit to that.) or a Union website. The sheer fact that the TSA Union has made clear remarks about GoJet's real purpose should be the real indicator. We use the term "Whipsaw" all the time, but honestly, have you seen this term used in Offical reports or even in Press Releases or articles? No, you won't, because its slang terminology among the pilots and unions. Just because the information isn't published from a "neutral" source, doesn't mean that it isn't factual and hasn't in fact occured.
Is it that you are not a supporter of ALPA or are you just looking for proof that you know doesn't exist as to justify GoJet's existence? How can you justify the TSA pilot group having such bitterness towards their "alter-ego" then? Can you find proof that in fact the TSA pilot group does not have poor feelings towards GoJet?
Do you see what I'm saying? Where is the line drawn?
Obviously, if the vast majority of the Unionized industry despises the very existence of GoJets, then there must be some valid and truthful reason to it. That alone is enough evidence for me to stay well clear of that place for the sake of my career.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Dammit... I said I was going to stay out of this thread. I should have just gone to sleep instead of opening up my web browser.
You sir, are a hypocrite. You talk real big about how you need proof that a company is bad, and then you go jump on the Mesa band wagon.
So I ask you (and I want proof) what's so bad about Mesa? How are they hurting the industry? What pilot group have they screwed over? And don't tell me about how much quality of life sucks there because there is no way YOU could REALLY know that.
Grr.. All I can say is ya'll are lucky my lap top battery is about to die. I'd keep going with this one.
aloft
New Member
Sure, PCL_128's last post, for one.
He verifies that AMR's contract with TSA prohibited TSA from flying 70 seat jets (for anyone, as I understand it), which clearly necessitated creation of another company in order to escape the confines of that clause.
So which is it? Created to circumvent AMR scope? Or bust the TSA union? Maybe both? Plausible, but improbable.
As I see it, TSA's pilots had a shot at that flying and passed. Three times. Given this, how anyone can say the GoJet pilots "stole" this flying from the TSA guys is beyond me; they threw it away.