GoJet Airlines

Aloft: how many times do you have to blatantly ignore facts that are presented to you?

As for the pay thing, Every union contract (then or now) has separate payrates for 50 seat and 70 seat jet Captains. The TSA pilots were only negotiating for what every other union contract had.
 
And I'll just add, maybe somebody has the time to look it up on here, but I recall a few years ago a website that was created listing the names of GoJet pilots who left TSA and the Union to fly larger jets at GoJet for the same or lower rates then they currently had.
 
How many times does this have to get pounded into you?

The GoJet certificate was inevitable. The GoJet seniority list was not needed to fly the -700s. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Are you failing to realize the difference between a certificate and a seniority list?
 
aloft said:
As I see it, TSA's pilots had a shot at that flying and passed. Three times. Given this, how anyone can say the GoJet pilots "stole" this flying from the TSA guys is beyond me; they threw it away.
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Its late and I'm retarded. :insane:
 
aloft said:
virtually all the stuff from ALPA is suspect for bias as they aren't exactly a disinterested party; they're EXPECTED to advocate for the TSA pilots, regardless. (Kinda like an attorney who swears up and down in court that his client is innocent, when he knows otherwise.)
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There is no such thing as a disinterested party in this case. The only two groups that really know what happened behind closed doors are the management and the union. Neither are disinterested, so what you seek for proof will never be available. All information comes from interested parties, because the only two parties that were present are interested parties. So, again, you have a choice: believe the union, or believe the scumbag managers.

Still, hard to believe taking a job with the company is as bad as taking one at, say, Mesa.
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No comparison. Mesa pilots aren't stealing flying from fellow pilots and taking part in a scope violation. In fact, their poor contract is the direct result of the Freedom-A alter-ego operation which was used as the blueprint by Hulas to create GoJet. But you probably weren't around back then to know of Freedom-A, were you? Again, you're uninformed on these matters, and you'd do well to listen to those that are intimately familiar with them.
 
aloft said:
Sure, PCL_128's last post, for one.

He verifies that AMR's contract with TSA prohibited TSA from flying 70 seat jets (for anyone, as I understand it), which clearly necessitated creation of another company in order to escape the confines of that clause.

So which is it? Created to circumvent AMR scope? Or bust the TSA union? Maybe both? Plausible, but improbable.

As I see it, TSA's pilots had a shot at that flying and passed. Three times. Given this, how anyone can say the GoJet pilots "stole" this flying from the TSA guys is beyond me; they threw it away.
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Don't try to twist what I said. I've made it clear to you a dozen times now, but you're apparently too dense or unwilling to accept the facts. Creating a separate operating certificate was necessary to fly bigger airplanes, but creating a new seniority list was not. The only reason for creating a new seniority list was to bust the union and create a whipsaw. There is no other explanation, and you can't get around that.
 
aloft said:
Um, it's my understanding they tried to go this route, but the TSA pilot group turned them down....three times.
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No, the TSA pilot group turned down an agreement to fly them for the same payrates. They wanted to fly the airplanes, but at an acceptable payrate. Hulas never engaged in real negotiations. He gave them an ultimatum that he knew they wouldn't possibly accept, paving the way for him to use it as an excuse to violate the scope agreement. And guys like you have bought into his pathetic ruse. You should be smarter than that.
 
Airdale said:
The problem is, I just don't think you are going to find proof of what happened without going to a NMB website (which is only going to state facts and never will you see a "fact" that Gojet was created to circumvent the TSA Union. Management will never admit to that.)
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True, yet PCL_128 just validated the alternate explanation I cited.

Airdale said:
The sheer fact that the TSA Union has made clear remarks about GoJet's real purpose should be the real indicator.
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To my thinking, this is neither here nor there. It's not hard to imagine that the TSA pilots were clearly pissed at management calling their bluff and taking the CRJs off the table. As I see it, going back and forth a couple times on negotiation of rates is to be expected, but three times is just being ridiculous. I don't know if GoJet's current rates are close to the company's final offer to the TSA pilots, but if it is, that's just plain stupidity on the part of the TSA pilots.

Airdale said:
Is it that you are not a supporter of ALPA or are you just looking for proof that you know doesn't exist as to justify GoJet's existence? How can you justify the TSA pilot group having such bitterness towards their "alter-ego" then? Can you find proof that in fact the TSA pilot group does not have poor feelings towards GoJet?

Do you see what I'm saying? Where is the line drawn?

Obviously, if the vast majority of the Unionized industry despises the very existence of GoJets, then there must be some valid and truthful reason to it. That alone is enough evidence for me to stay well clear of that place for the sake of my career.
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That, or they've been the subject of a massive disinformation campaign, or people just don't care enough to investigate for themselves.

Honestly, it's hard to know what to believe when all I see are people making ridiculous statements, calling the GoJet pilots scabs, etc; either they don't understand what the word means, or they're misinformed about GoJet, or both. Maybe it's the skeptic in me, but when someone makes a claim, I expect them to back it up with reasonable arguments or evidence that they're in a position to know. Simply being in the industry does not make one privy to the kinds of things people have claimed in this thread. Instead, all I've gotten in this thread is lots of opinion, hearsay and "it's common knowledge!" logical fallacies.

And with that, good night all.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
I figure they both and other TSA pilots on JC haven't posted, because it's such a volitale topic in their corner of the industry. I figure should they not have in fact been employed at TSA, they'll definitely know someone who was.
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Ok, I'll finally weigh in here. I, like Ethan, was going to stay out of this, but I've got to jump in, even after a long day.

aloft said:
If they weren't, their knowledge of the events in question is unreliable.
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I wasn't at TSA when the GoJet debacle went down, I arrived shortly after, but I've been here long enough to become educated on it and to have a fairly good idea what I'm talking about. Just beacuse I wasn't employed here when it happened doesn't make me any less affected by it. GoJets has affected every TSA pilot, doesn't matter what their date of hire, and they still do to this day.

aloft said:
Still, hard to believe taking a job with the company is as bad as taking one at, say, Mesa.
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Right there. You just totally blew any kind of credibility you might have had. You're talking all this stuff about GoJet and how you need proof and then you go and bash Mesa for no reason at all. You have ZERO right to talk about GoJet unless it has directly affected you which to my knowledge it hasn't. Unless you work for them, which by the way you're talking, wouldn't surprise me. And if not, you're talking like someone that would see nothing wrong with going to work for GoJet. The facts have been well presented here...read them.

You say we "threw away" the flying that was given to GoJet. Wrong. We voted it down because the company wouldn't pay us competitive rates to fly the bigger jets.

The people that are doing the majority of the posting in this thread (read:not aloft) know what they're talking about and are correct. YOU, aloft, need to listen to what everyone here is saying and educate yourself.
 
aloft said:
True, yet PCL_128 just validated the alternate explanation I cited.
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No I didn't. These sorts of lies and misrepresentations are destroying your credibility (what little you had, anyway).

I don't know if GoJet's current rates are close to the company's final offer to the TSA pilots
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The final offer to the TSA pilots was nothing. They offered them current 50-seat payrates. No pay raise, no override, no improved work rules, no nothing. Take it or leave it. Again, this was not a set of negotiations, this was an ultimatum. Why do you find this so difficult to comprehend?
 
JetsGoWhee said:
Ok, I'll finally weigh in here. I, like Ethan, was going to stay out of this, but I've got to jump in, even after a long day.




I wasn't at TSA when the GoJet debacle went down, I arrived shortly after, but I've been here long enough to become educated on it and to have a fairly good idea what I'm talking about. Just beacuse I wasn't employed here when it happened doesn't make me any less affected by it. GoJets has affected every TSA pilot, doesn't matter what their date of hire, and they still do to this day.



Right there. You just totally blew any kind of credibility you might have had. You're talking all this stuff about GoJet and how you need proof and then you go and bash Mesa for no reason at all. You have ZERO right to talk about GoJet unless it has directly affected you which to my knowledge it hasn't. Unless you work for them, which by the way you're talking, wouldn't surprise me. And if not, you're talking like someone that would see nothing wrong with going to work for GoJet. The facts have been well presented here...read them.

You say we "threw away" the flying that was given to GoJet. Wrong. We voted it down because the company wouldn't pay us competitive rates to fly the bigger jets.

The people that are doing the majority of the posting in this thread (read:not aloft) know what they're talking about and are correct. YOU, aloft, need to listen to what everyone here is saying and educate yourself.
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Active: TSA Pilot!!!!!

Even with the above tag, Jets, I'm sure he'll find some way to minimalize your input, and call your experience on the topic into question.

Maybe saying your credibility is questionable, because you weren't there at the time, or some crap like that.

This will be interesting to see how he spins it!
 
aloft said:
Save for the absence of any actual whipsaw since.
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And again you demonstrate your ignorance. The whipsaw continues to this day. It is going on behind closed doors of the Section 6 negotiations. These negotiations have dragged on for over two years now with absolutely no progress. Management continues to hold the threat of GoJet over the pilots' heads, so they have no reason to negotiate in good faith with the pilots. If it looks like a strike is imminent, then the company can simply start transferring airplanes to GoJet. With only 48 airplanes on the TSA certificate, the transfer could be accomplished in as little as 6-9 months. Zero interruption to service with their contracted agreements with mainline carriers, and no need to come to an agreement with their pilots. The TSA MEC is basically powerless because of the specter of GoJet. The fact that you don't understand this is clear proof that you're in way over your head on this subject.
 
PCL_128 said:
No I didn't. These sorts of lies and misrepresentations are destroying your credibility (what little you had, anyway).



The final offer to the TSA pilots was nothing. They offered them current 50-seat payrates. No pay raise, no override, no improved work rules, no nothing. Take it or leave it. Again, this was not a set of negotiations, this was an ultimatum. Why do you find this so difficult to comprehend?
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Not to mention they wanted them to sign about a 14 year contract at those #####ty rates. It was a joke what was offered. We were whipsawed with Bigsky once upon a time. So it does bite every one eventually. Thats why this is a big deal to ALPA members.

Aloft's logic = FAIL
 
[Sorry, last post...I really need to get to sleep.]

JetsGoWhee said:
You say we "threw away" the flying that was given to GoJet. Wrong. We voted it down because the company wouldn't pay us competitive rates to fly the bigger jets.
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So you're suggesting that GoJet pilots are flying the bigger jets for less than competitive rates? Let's see if that bears out:

CRJ700 5th Yr CA pay, courtesy Airline Pilot Central:

American Eagle: $73
ASA: $69
Comair: $66
GoJet: $66
Horizon: $80
Mesa: $64
Mesaba: $66 (CRJ900)
Pinnacle: $62 (CRJ200/900)
PSA: $68 (CRJ200/700)
SkyWest: $69

How 'bout that. GoJet's rates seem remarkably average, particularly when you disregard the rates for Eagle and Horizon since they have no 5th year captains.

JetsGoWhee said:
The people that are doing the majority of the posting in this thread (read:not aloft) know what they're talking about and are correct. YOU, aloft, need to listen to what everyone here is saying and educate yourself.
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*Removed*
 
aloft said:
So you're suggesting that GoJet pilots are flying the bigger jets for less than competitive rates? Let's see if that bears out:
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Payrates are only but a small portion of the equation. But with that said, the payrates still aren't adequate, even if they had the requisite work rules to go with them. But all of that is beside the point. No one really cares about their payrates. We care that the entire operation is an alter-ego whipsaw that is used to undermine the TSA MEC and destroy their bargaining leverage. This isn't about payrates, it's about scope.
 
I thought it was about GoJet pilots being willing to fly 70 seaters for 50 seat prices, which TSA said wasn't acceptable.
 
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