aloft
New Member
Depends. Are they in a position to speak authoritatively on the subject? Were they at TSA at the time? If not, then no.
GoJet Airlines
- Thread starter Airdale
- Start date
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
Cite a valid representative source that says the only reason they created another company was because the TSA pilots rejected negotiations thrice? As soon as you can do that, I'll believe you.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
You're a hypocrite then. You offer an alternative solution but offer no proof then demand proof from us?
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
What part of "Nobody would outwardly admit they were doing it to screw over the TSA pilots" do you not understand? You're everything I've thought you were.
WalterSobchak
Well-Known Member
Ignorance is bliss.:yeahthat:
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
*sigh*
I really think that you'd argue with the friggin' MEC chairman at the time, if he told you what really occured, just for the sake of arguing your point.
I really don't think it's "group think, occuring in this thread, but more so facts.
As for my post, I have no idea if they were around at that time. You can ask. JetsGoWhee and Foxcow are both members on this forum. JetsGoWhee posted on the first page of this thread I figure they both and other TSA pilots on JC haven't posted, because it's such a volitale topic in their corner of the industry. I figure should they not have in fact been employed at TSA, they'll definitely know someone who was.
But take this as fact, as I've heard it from sever TSA'ers. GoJet pilots have seperate crew rooms from TSA'ers at their hubs and seperate parking lots, and even private security to protect them.
I'd think that they'd not need all that for nothing, wouldn't you?
WalterSobchak
Well-Known Member
I have my ALPA card in my pocket and have friends that were at TSA for the last 4 years. I feel much more informed than you. I chose to be at a respectable carrier covered by ALPA so I can have a clean conscience at night. I don't see how actually having experience in the airline industry makes my post ironic.
aloft, Once again ignorance is bliss.
aloft
New Member
That's just it, man: I'm not trying to prove a point, I'm only after unbiased, factual information, and nobody here seems capable of offering any. You can bet I'd be interested in what the then-MEC chair at TSA has to say, but I'd be equally interested in what TSA mgt had to say as well.
I'm also hesitant to call it group think also, but there's certainly a degree of people eager to take as gospel whatever they're told, however biased, spun, self-serving or misleading it might be. My dad once told me "don't believe anything you hear, don't believe anything you read, and only believe half of what you see."
If they weren't, their knowledge of the events in question is unreliable.
Perhaps, but it's not proof of anything in particular, either.
Tram
Well-Known Member
Here's a better question..
Are you in a position to speak authoritatively on the subject?
Have you ever been at TSA?
Have you ever been at GoJets?
Do you even fly 121?
I have come to the conclusion, you just like to hear yourself type...
You have an entire thread of guys telling you how 99.9% of the industry feels about GoJets and yet you continue to argue it.. There is no teaching some people.. You are one of these people..
There are three reasons why this is happening..
Either:
A.) You are arguing for arguments sake
B.) You are the type of guy who finds "no real issue" with GoJets..
C.) You are an idiot..
It seems like the likely answer to the question is B.. You are simply the type of guy to work there.. It takes all kinds to make the world spin..
Some guys just don't find anything wrong with having 9 out of 10 people disagree with them.. You are that guy as evidenced in this thread..
One day, you may understand what the stigma surrounding GoJets is, why it is exists, etc..
When you get over your "I know it all" phase and actually get into the business, you will understand - until then - you are not in a position to speak authoritatively on the subject, so please, do us all a favor and stop....
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
I'll give Matt credit for at least asking questions, and daring to to his own research on the topic.
That said we part ways after that. Why, because overwhelmingly he is hearing from people who are knowledgeable on the topic, and he is overlooking their knowledge on the topic.
Like I previously stated, I don't think this thread suffers any evidence of group think. Therefore one should take heart when a confirmed trade unionist like PCL speaks up, and others.
I myself am not in the industry per se, I only work for a FAA 145 repair shop. My point in bring up that fact is that even I'm aware (again not being in 121 industry) the origins of the GoJet pilot saga.
It's pretty much common knowledge.
That said, I'll easily agree with you that it might seem on aloft question for answers he has lost his way, and now seems to only argue for arguement sake.
I truly believe that he'd argue down an active TSA pilot, questioning their statements about TSA in regards to GoJet.
Tram
Well-Known Member
I might have given him some credit if he hadn't taken up the stand in the manner he has taken it.. It is much more defensive than a guy looking for answers.. A guy looking for answers does not attempt to correct everything that is put his way..
A guy honestly looking for answers also does not try to negate the weight of the answers he is given with statements such as: "Are you in a position to speak authoritatively on the subject?"
That is a statement looking for an argument..
aloft
New Member
It's ironic because having airline industry experience doesn't make you any more credible as to the issue at hand. Sure, it makes your belief plausible--I'll even give you probable--but it doesn't make it credible--and worse, it lends itself to a false sense of validity, which only perpetuates the problem. People tend to believe people who speak authoritatively, whether they're a credible authority or not, and they tend to repeat what they've been told. I have no doubt in my mind that a TON of that is going on here.
Not to engage in a Mormon-bash tangent here, but it's a staple of monthly Mormon "Fast and Testimony" meetings for people to get up and bear their testimony as to the truth of their church and its teachings. Inevitably, people are heard to emphatically state, "I know this is the one true church, and that Jesus was resurrected from the grave", etc. Things they couldn't possibly have direct knowledge of. It's one thing to have knowledge of something, and another entirely to hold a fervent belief in something. The two are not the same.
As this pertains to the discussion of GoJet, sure, it's entirely plausible that GoJet was created solely to circumvent the TSA pilots union, but equally plausible alternative explanations exist. Of course, which is more believable to you--which isn't the same as being plausible--depends on how much management/ALPA kool-aid you've drunk. But it's a fool's paradise believing something solely because of its believability. Con artists--and increasingly, politicians--RELY on that fact.
What I'm interested in are the facts surrounding GoJet. Not beliefs, not suppositions, not theories, FACTS: untainted information that neither party disputes. I don't want opinions, I'm fully capable of forming my own--but I'm equally willing to listen to the reasoning behind those opinions so as to evaluate its logic.
That's hardly ignorance, hardly head-in-the-sand; it's called critical thinking.
aloft
New Member
That's pure B.S. This is exactly why everyone here says "GO TO COLLEGE".
aloft
New Member
All irrelevant, because I'M NOT ADVOCATING ANYTHING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I'm trying to poke holes in everyone's pet theories here to see if they hold up to scrutiny, and so far they do not.
God, you're dense. Again, I don't give a crap HOW the industry feels, I want to know WHY they feel that way. Whether their reasons have any basis in fact is the ONLY thing that matters to me.
aloft
New Member
Entirely debatable.
What we DO have are lots of people holding up OPINION as FACT. PCL_128 is one such "false prophet".
"All homosexuals are pedophiles." -- common knowledge from the 1950s.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
The information I have provided has come directly from the sources: the then MEC Chairman, Dario Miranda, the negotiator, Marshall Bliss, and several members of the MEC. They sat across the table from the company negotiators and Hulas and directly negotiated (or tried to, anyway). If you refuse to accept their accounting of the situation, then that's your choice.
aloft
New Member
I'd love to see their accounting of the situation. Right now, you're only giving me your version of it. And how exactly did these people come to share this information with you? (i.e., how do I know you're not simply name-dropping here?)