Furlough Estimates

Uh oh, who’s going out of business?




  • Calhoun said, “Something will happen when September comes around. Traffic levels will not be back to 100%. They won’t even be back to 25.”
  • It might take until the end of the year for levels to approach 50%, “so there will definitely be adjustments that have to be made on the part of the airlines,” Calhoun said in an excerpt released today.
 
Uh oh, who’s going out of business?




  • Calhoun said, “Something will happen when September comes around. Traffic levels will not be back to 100%. They won’t even be back to 25.”
  • It might take until the end of the year for levels to approach 50%, “so there will definitely be adjustments that have to be made on the part of the airlines,” Calhoun said in an excerpt released today.
Miami Air
 
Uh oh, who’s going out of business?




  • Calhoun said, “Something will happen when September comes around. Traffic levels will not be back to 100%. They won’t even be back to 25.”
  • It might take until the end of the year for levels to approach 50%, “so there will definitely be adjustments that have to be made on the part of the airlines,” Calhoun said in an excerpt released today.

This is reality. This is what people need to accept and start preparing for. The idea of a fast recovery is pure fantasy.
 
I get what you're saying, but US airlines don't operate like this.

For a furlough to make sense is takes a period of time, between 1 and 2 years for it to be economically viable.

That snapshot is going to be taken in the fall for a year in the future. If long term bookings are still down then sure, furloughs will happen. But 30,000 pilots wouldn't be out of the job today.


I didn't say 30,000 pilots would be out of a job today. I said 15,000-30,000 and that it takes time to furlough that many, and that was in reference to the USA airline market.

There are definitely 30,000 pilots out of a job (or not getting paid) worldwide already. That number will grow much larger as the year progresses.

Best case realistic scenarios for this pandemic to resolve are 2-4 years. The hope of an effective vaccine in 12-18 months is wildly optimistic. Given that we already have so many vaccines for Coronavirus, right? There is one for the common cold (a Corona family virus); one of SARS from 18 years ago; and one for MERS from 8-9 years ago :sarcasm:.

I'd rather be pessimistic and prepared then get pleasantly surprised by a quicker recovery than of hoping for some miracle to happen when there is almost zero current travel demand and almost every national border is closed.
 
No one knows yet. Nothing is going to happen before October anyways.

That is incorrect.

The WARN act requires 60 days notice before a furlough of greater than 100 people. That's on or about August 1st which means July will be an interesting month.

60 days from now we will be in the thick of it, waiting for the axe to fall.


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That is incorrect.

The WARN act requires 60 days notice before a furlough of greater than 100 people. That's on or about August 1st which means July will be an interesting month.

60 days from now we will be in the thick of it, waiting for the axe to fall.


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OK, nothing is going to happen except the notice that something could happen on October 1.
 
I didn't say 30,000 pilots would be out of a job today. I said 15,000-30,000 and that it takes time to furlough that many, and that was in reference to the USA airline market.

There are definitely 30,000 pilots out of a job (or not getting paid) worldwide already. That number will grow much larger as the year progresses.

Best case realistic scenarios for this pandemic to resolve are 2-4 years. The hope of an effective vaccine in 12-18 months is wildly optimistic. Given that we already have so many vaccines for Coronavirus, right? There is one for the common cold (a Corona family virus); one of SARS from 18 years ago; and one for MERS from 8-9 years ago :sarcasm:.

I'd rather be pessimistic and prepared then get pleasantly surprised by a quicker recovery than of hoping for some miracle to happen when there is almost zero current travel demand and almost every national border is closed.

The SARS1 and MERS work has been ported by the folks over at the University of Pittsburgh.


And that's not the only one.


And listen, it's pretty clear that I'm not some eternal optimist, or that I somehow have some faith in humanity to get ANYTHING right on most days. That being said, researchers are all hands on deck for this one. We don't have a broad coronavirus vaccine because the common cold doesn't kill like this.

This is different.

EDIT: I should also say, I'm close enough to the bottom of.my list that I expecting to be let loose this fall. We're fortunate enough that my wife's job looks safe for right now since she, you guessed it, does medical research. Even if her current project is shut down, there's enough virology research happening right now that she should be able to find something.

I simply don't accept 50% furloughs as a matter of course, nor do I think long term economic analysis supports the idea.
 
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I didn't say 30,000 pilots would be out of a job today. I said 15,000-30,000 and that it takes time to furlough that many, and that was in reference to the USA airline market.

There are definitely 30,000 pilots out of a job (or not getting paid) worldwide already. That number will grow much larger as the year progresses.

Best case realistic scenarios for this pandemic to resolve are 2-4 years. The hope of an effective vaccine in 12-18 months is wildly optimistic. Given that we already have so many vaccines for Coronavirus, right? There is one for the common cold (a Corona family virus); one of SARS from 18 years ago; and one for MERS from 8-9 years ago :sarcasm:.

I'd rather be pessimistic and prepared then get pleasantly surprised by a quicker recovery than of hoping for some miracle to happen when there is almost zero current travel demand and almost every national border is closed.

This pandemic doesn’t necessarily have to end medically. We could come up with better treatments, increase testing, shield the vulnerable and, most importantly, move on from the media hype and it would be over. We then deal with it and treat it like we do all other sorts of illnesses.

I personally don’t think we will come up with a vaccine. I hope the people in charge aren’t planning for one.
 
Hey, I hope you're right, I really do. But I am getting sent a lot of articles from a prominent epidemiologist and former Sanofi Pasteur executive (friend of mine) that are anything other than optimistic. He was retired, but has gone to work for the WHO office in Asia to help guide them.

Here are some excerpts:

Straight Talk from ex-CDC for the Long Slog Ahead
By Bruce G. Weniger, MD, MPH and Chin-Yih Ou, PhD, medical epidemiologist and research-laboratory specialist, respectively; both retired from CDC

Vaccines? Not So Fast

The degree and duration of such natural or artificial immunity (presumed to result but not yet proven), can only be determined by following large cohorts of persons after either a prior positive genetic test, or when a vaccine was received, and determining if and when they may be [re-]infected. This will require at least a couple of years of enhanced surveillance, and is absolutely essential in formal phase-III field-efficacy trials of candidate vaccines.

Dr. Fauci’s 12-to-18-month prediction for an effective vaccine is optimistically unprecedented, and Trump’s ”Warp Speed” schedule is recklessly dangerous. Pivotal trials with an unusually short period of follow-up might not detect serious adverse sequelae. For example, a phenomenon known as antibody-dependent enhancement causes some vaccine recipients, who nevertheless become infected by exposure to a pathogen, paradoxically to have more severe illness than if they had not been vaccinated at all

ADE has been observed for coronaviruses in monkeys, pigs, cats, and in cultured human cells. It was also observed in children after a trial of a respiratory syncytial virus vaccine and after a mass campaign of a licensed dengue virus vaccine given to 830,000 children in the Philippines, resulting in withdrawal of the vaccine.

Adverse consequences detected after introduction of new influenza vaccines have included Guillian-Barré syndrome, Bell’s palsy, and narcolepsy. EUAs, by definition, bypass thorough regulatory review of how new vaccines (and drugs) are made and work. One famous example of lax Federal oversight was the famous “Cutter Incident” in which faulty production caused paralytic polio in some early vaccine recipients. Little known is that the problem was not limited to just one manufacturer, as documented by CDC in its secret 1955 “Wyeth Problem” and 1957 “Wyeth Report”.

Experience suggests three to four years is a more realistic timeframe to have a COVID-19 vaccine proven safe enough to put into many millions of healthy people. Consider the deadly Ebola epidemic in 2014 to 2016, during which the world barely dodged a bullet. In October 2014, the first phase-I vaccine trials began in American volunteers, with a succession of further trials. The pivotal one in Guinea and Sierra Leone ended in January, 2016 having used a novel study design with only 84 days of follow-up. The vaccine was put to use in 2018 under EUA to vaccinate over 300,000 persons to control a later epidemic in Central Africa. In 2019, the FDA finally licensed the vaccine, warning that its duration of protection was unknown.

Even if the first COVID-19 efficacy trials were to be a “home run” in protecting, say, 90% of recipients, it may take a year or more to produce the hundreds of millions of needed doses (one per person? two? more?). An exception for such delay would be to emulate the financial gamble of FDR’s March of Dimes foundation in the 1950s. It paid for advance manufacture of 27 million doses of polio vaccine to be on hand in case the efficacy trial still underway would prove the vaccine worked. It did, and vaccination started within days of the famous announcement.

Vaccines never reach more than 95% of U.S. children and adolescents recommended for them, nor more than 75% of adults. Nor are vaccines ever 100% protective. Annually, 140 million humans susceptible to the virus causing COVID-19 are born on the planet, including 3.8 million in the U.S. The most probable scenario is that transmission of this virus will persist for years, becoming an endemic disease, as have many other emerging pathogens in recent decades.
 
We are in uncharted and unprecedented times yet so many on the internet are so certain their opinions of the future are right. Comical.

I keep going back and forth in my mind about chp 11 coming or not coming. Well, at least I have all day tomorrow to think about it again. And the next. And the next. And the ne.....

We will be flying again sometime!
 
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No that's a credit card company that's inconvenienced by having a few planes

I thank goodness Alaska bought us. A stand-alone Virgin would have liquidated in this crisis. Articles I’ve read state that of all the airlines, SWA and ALK are best to weather through this. Although anything can happen, I really hope the Boeing CEO is wrong about losing one major.
 
I thank goodness Alaska bought us. A stand-alone Virgin would have liquidated in this crisis. Articles I’ve read state that of all the airlines, SWA and ALK are best to weather through this. Although anything can happen, I really hope the Boeing CEO is wrong about losing one major.

It would seem that if the majority of a carrier's flying is domestic USA they would be better positioned for a recovery. The international quarantine restrictions and border closures are going to persist in one form or another for awhile I am afraid. That hurts the big 3 the most.
 
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