Flying for free...Don't do it.

[PGT]

He made the trip.

His brother argued with me that flying for GoJet would be ok.

 

[E_Dawg]

I wouldn't sweat it. There's always somebody willing to do it for less. Just as there is usually someone who is worth more. Try to educate him if you can - and send him to jetcareers!

 

[PGT]

I wouldn't sweat it. There's always somebody willing to do it for less. Just as there is usually someone who is worth more. Try to educate him if you can - and send him to jetcareers!

This kid is impossible to educate.

And thanks for posting, I've been looking your signature to include in a paper I'm writing

 

[E_Dawg]

This kid is impossible to educate.

And thanks for posting, I've been looking your signature to include in a paper I'm writing

Sure! You say he is a new pilot, is he also a young pilot? Send him over here - truth be told 10yrs ago I'd have probably done just about anything for flight time too. Instead I stumbled upon this website and learned there is a better way to do things. Thanks in large part to this site, I avoided the pay to play and fly for free scams, saved a crap ton of cash and got out with hardly any debt.

 

[PGT]

He's a new pilot but has about 400-500 hours. Sophmore in college, dad used to have a big time aviation gig in the US that I will not name.

He's cocky, does stupid things in an airplane, and likes to stretch the truth...not the kind of person I want to invite to JC.

 

[ppragman]

some get killed, some wise up, and the majority continue to bumble through life indefinitely

unfortunately, as long as you dont kill yourself, theres not much distinguishing the good and the adequate...

hell, from first hand experience, even trying to distinguish myself as a proficient and skillful pilot, has got me NOTHING AT ALL as far as increased recognition, increased opportunities, or even any acknowledgement of "hey, maybe this guy can fly pretty well, we should give his resume a look"

only thing that matters in this job is hours hours hours (which, you cant get without a job or money...and cant get a job and money if you dont have hours), and who you know. and i dont mean "networking"...which means little to none... im talking good old boys club and my daddy knows so and so...

really fed up with this "profession" these days

about ready to move to costa rica permanently!

I agree with the bold. How "good" you are, how "safe" you are, how "skillfully" you handle the airplane. None of that means anything if you don't have the time. Insurance runs this industry, and even the best guy in the world doesn't stand a chance if he doesn't have the requisite time. Another irony, if I were hiring dudes, I'd rather hire the guy who'd who has an accident or incident that he walked away from depending on the accident or incident, even though he'd be harder to insure.

The good ole' boys club is alive and well in General Aviation, and in someways it sucks, because truly good pilots get passed over for guys that dudes know. That's why I've made it my mission to hook up everyone I possibly can with work.

 

[dasleben]

He's a new pilot but has about 400-500 hours. Sophmore in college, dad used to have a big time aviation gig in the US that I will not name.

He's cocky, does stupid things in an airplane, and likes to stretch the truth...not the kind of person I want to invite to JC.

400-500 hours...how'd the insurance company insure him in a 421? I mean, when I had a fresh multi certificate and <50 hours of multi, I couldn't even qualify to rent the old Seneca I across the field.

 

[splash]

really fed up with this "profession" these days

about ready to move to costa rica permanently!

Need a roommate?

Another irony, if I were hiring dudes, I'd rather hire the guy who'd who has an accident or incident that he walked away from depending on the accident or incident, even though he'd be harder to insure.

You make sure you contact me when you start doing the hiring. Accident under my belt here. Not pilot error and aircraft was totaled. I was turned down a job offer because of this! I even went threw all the pee pee test for the company too; then they sent me the insurance paper work and I check off in the box under accident. That's all it took! I contacted the the company's insurance in which the reason was blamed on and you guess what they had to say..."It's not that we have a problem with insuring you nor does it make the price go up, you see he really watches out for who he hires! Pisses me off! Maybe I should have lied on the paperwork. It aint right!

MUCH IS BLAMED ON INSURANCE! I did the research!

 

[wrxpilot]

only thing that matters in this job is hours hours hours (which, you cant get without a job or money...and cant get a job and money if you dont have hours), and who you know. and i dont mean "networking"...which means little to none... im talking good old boys club and my daddy knows so and so...

really fed up with this "profession" these days

about ready to move to costa rica permanently!

Well... Every aviation job I've had has been through networking. So that would include CFI, charter pilot, and now corporate pilot. It's not that networking doesn't work, it's just that right now the job market is terrible.

 

[EIR]

400-500 hours...how'd the insurance company insure him in a 421? I mean, when I had a fresh multi certificate and <50 hours of multi, I couldn't even qualify to rent the old Seneca I across the field.

:yeahthat: I'm sure the company having him do the flying will reconsider the lack of time when / if something happens to their aircraft.

 

[Patrick]

I lost a part time gig flying a BE58 to a guy with 270 hours and a wet multi ticket, because he offered to fly for the owner "in exchange for the flight time" and the owner was, well, an idiot. I explained to him that it'd be cheaper (and we'll leave the safety aspect out of this) to just pay me and enjoy his lower insurance than pay to insure a low time guy who wants to fly for free.

His answer? "Oh I just won't tell them that you aren't flying for me anymore."

I said "you have fun with that when you need to file a claim" (or wind up dead or what have you)

No response from him on that one.

Needless to say, since he used the same agency that insured my airplane, I called my agent and told him that I wasn't flying for this guy anymore, and he asked me who he hired instead, and I just said "I wasn't sure..."

 

[mooneyguy]

I take it this friend of yours is pretty low time.

I've seen a lot of lower time pilots handle 400-series Cessnas, and if he's just thinking he's going to hop in without training and fly it safely with low time, he's gonna get a swift kick in the ass. The planes are absolute joys to fly, but it's not a Seminole or other low-powered training twin. It's about 50 knots faster in most flight regimes than a Seminole or a Duchess, and climbs at 2000-2500fpm when light. Not saying it's a widowmaker (it's certainly not), but he's probably going to be very behind for the first few hours. Enough to the point he shouldn't be cut loose as PIC until he's sorted out with someone more experienced for a while. Single-engine ops are no joke, either.

Never flown a Navajo or a Baron, but I followed a Baron after takeoff yesterday, and he pulled away from me pretty strongly even when I was climbing at 140 KIAS. Not a slouch airplane either. I'd be more concerned about him biting off more than he can chew than him flying for free (that sucks too, though).

The B55 is a pretty straight forward airplane to fly. Not difficult at all. If you have twin time you could hop in one and fly it. But like most planes, it does have it's quirks. You do not not want to stall it while single engine, It can easily get into a flat spin (like you want to stall any twin while single engine).

I passed up a chance to fly with a guy in an almost brand new A-36. At the time I had no beech time and no Bonanza time. The guy had 150 (or less) HRS, and I felt i didn't have anything to offer him. I found out he then went out and bought an eclipse. He wanted his CFI to fly right seat with him in it. Hmmm, me 0 turbine, him 150 hr private pilot...yeah Turbine time (drool drool), but my gut still telling me very bad idea.

Another story I just heard about. A new Mooney Acclaim owner had to send his plane in for some upgrades. It had about 50 hours total on the plane. The company doing the upgrades hired a low time cfi in the area to fly it to Kerville. He made it to kerville where he smashed the airplane nose gear first into the runway. Prop, engine, firewall, nose gear, just a few of the things damaged. The company told the owner, dont worry we'll fix it, the owners reply, no you wont, you will give me a new plane.

CFI now has an accident on his record. Just because you can does not mean you should.

 

[splash]

CFI now has an accident on his record. Just because you can does not mean you should.

In most scenarios it doesn't mater if the pilot caused the accident or not it is still a strike against the pilot. Best thing to do is to say it never happened and let the company find out on their own otherwise you may not have a chance in hell. Even if it is pilot error, no one is perfect and people make mistakes, that's what insurance is for.

 

[mshunter]

Needless to say, since he used the same agency that insured my airplane, I called my agent and told him that I wasn't flying for this guy anymore, and he asked me who he hired instead, and I just said "I wasn't sure..."

HA! Sweet.

 

[TXaviator]

I agree with the bold. How "good" you are, how "safe" you are, how "skillfully" you handle the airplane. None of that means anything if you don't have the time. Insurance runs this industry, and even the best guy in the world doesn't stand a chance if he doesn't have the requisite time. Another irony, if I were hiring dudes, I'd rather hire the guy who'd who has an accident or incident that he walked away from depending on the accident or incident, even though he'd be harder to insure.

The good ole' boys club is alive and well in General Aviation, and in someways it sucks, because truly good pilots get passed over for guys that dudes know. That's why I've made it my mission to hook up everyone I possibly can with work.

WORD. ive already done some good in paying it forward, hooked up a fellow JC'er with a job at my company, and also hooked up a fellow friend from flight school with a job at my company after he was laid off from Mesaba... karma? still waiting! (but it did feel damn good inside to hook someone in need up with a job they really appreciated)

Need a roommate?

yep! real estate is super cheap there... i was in Jaco Beach and there was a two-level building on the main street with a bar/restaurant downstairs and what looked like a few apartments upstairs for... $90,000USD.... beach property for CHEEEEAP!! im down if youre down. same goes to any other JC derelicts... ;-)
[/QUOTE]

Well... Every aviation job I've had has been through networking. So that would include CFI, charter pilot, and now corporate pilot. It's not that networking doesn't work, it's just that right now the job market is terrible.

That may be, but I get the feeling that my "networking style" is not the same as some may "reccommend" in this industry. IE - my networking is acting with professional demeanor any time im around anything work related, being polite and cordial with other people i encounter through work, and just being a straight up fellow at work. NOT going around begging everyone i see fly into the FBO for a job and having a stack of resumes in my back pocket ready to throw on the windshield of every turboprop that pulls up. Just not my thing. You know what I'm talking about... the OVER-EAGER toolbag. I dunno though, I keep being told thats what I NEED to do.... I'm not convinced.

I've been working 7 days a week out of FBO's all accross the country and only ONCE even had someone ask me "so, looking to move up or anything...because we hire some citation FO's...."

and then that conversation ended when I explained I only have 25ME time.

cant get a job because i dont have the right hours....cant get hours because i dont have the right job.

WTF.

:banghead:

 

[tonyw]

Long story short, these college students are having to work free in all different types of firms cause they need experience to land jobs.

Just because you've got a college education doesn't mean you're not stupid.

It's one thing to do it for credit, as part of an internship program. But unless it's a volunteer organization, I think that working for free is just plain stupid.

I have never done it and I never will. When I was 19 years old, I was offered an unpaid internship at a very prestigious advertising agency. They told me it was quite an honor to be offered the position.

I told them, well, honor doesn't pay my tuition so I'm going to have to decline. I told my dad what I did, and I figured he was going to be pissed at me.

Know what he told me? He told me he was proud of me for learning at a young age that if you're going to work for someone, you need to get paid for it.

 

[splash]

yep! real estate is super cheap there... i was in Jaco Beach and there was a two-level building on the main street with a bar/restaurant downstairs and what looked like a few apartments upstairs for... $90,000USD.... beach property for CHEEEEAP!! im down if youre down. same goes to any other JC derelicts... ;-)

Man, you should have PMed this info to me. :laff:

Many feel your pain with the hours. If I could do it all over again. After my first 10 flight lessons I should have bought my own airplane instead of going to college.

 

[MFT1Air]

Nothing new here, and it isn't going away. Talk to guys who came up in the mid 90s when you couldn't get in the right seat of a 1900 without 2500 hours and an ATP. Doesn't make it smart, safe, or any other good "s" word, but it'll always be there. As someone said, the key is to make it clear to people that a kid who's trying to "build multi time" isn't the person you want behind the controls of your high dollar investment when things go pear-shaped. Telling the kids they're being dumb isn't going to change their behavior any more than it does when you tell them drinking till you're nearly passed out and driving to the store for another sixer isn't wise.

:deadhorse::yeahthat:

Concur with you wholeheartedly.

 

[MFT1Air]

Im sure the fault is all mine, but i was talking about the 421 that took off from the dallas area (ADS i believe) that crashed off the west coast of FL in a thunderstorm. I wish i could find the news story, or at least the NTSB prelim, but i dont have the motivation.

Sounds to me as if there's a possibility someone overvalued their OWN personal minimums. Seems to me the same type of overelevated bravado could have occured in a 182 or an Arrow.

How many times has a low time pilot heard to never fly beyond your personal minimums? Not a many times as a higher time pilot. . .if you get my drift. (When in doubt, land the airplane/divert.)

 

[surreal1221]

But i gotta fly~!!!1