FL180 Cessna 172 Skyhawk

You're right, it's not normal, but it still falls in to the "stupid renter pilot" category. I wouldn't get upset with sdvc...whatever his name is...for abusing the engine, I'd explain to him what's going on and train him how to manage the engine in a better way. It's a mistake made out of ignorance, not recklessness. Just like how some pilots are hard on the gear or brakes, this instance was hard on the engine.

Ahh, but he could have prevented being hard on the engine if he was flying within limits. Also, a good instructor will teach you NOT to wear the brakes out. No need for them really. I could live with a bald spotted tire or worn breaks, but not a cracked cylindar because someone wanted to go flying at 18,000 feet.


I don't know enough about the engine manufacturing specs to comment one way or the other on high altitude performance. I know that the Piper Twin Commanche and Piper Seminole engines are certified to somewhere in the neighborhood of FL180-FL200 though, and I don't think those engines are significantly different than a 172's. They're all small, normally aspirated Lycomings.

Neither do I, but just because the engine is certified for that altitude are other components of the airplane certified for that altitude?

Passenger carrying Part 121 ops are a completely different animal than Part 61/91 flight training ops.

There are all kinds of limitations set in the 121 world that are highly conservative. Nothing wrong with that...in fact, as a passenger, I'm quite thankful for it.

But it's not a fair anology to compare "risk management" at an airline to "risk management" as a private pilot. There are totally different risks and rewards involved, and the threshold for acceptable risks and rewards is different.

121 regs are highly conservative? No not really. 121 regs are written in blood. Someone screws up THEN the FAA goes out and changes a rule. We have to police ourselves sometimes. I called fatigue after a 14 hour duty day. Legally, I could have gone to 16, according to these 'conservative, rigid, 121 regs' you talk about, but I was dead tired and couldn't see straight much less fly straight.

The risks and rewards are the same my friend. To get the plane and people in the plane back on the ground safely.



Ehhh...sort of. I think the accident rate among general aviation is higher mainly because of the vast diversity of the operations, coupled with a lack of hard standards, such as the 4000 foot minimum runway length Seggy mentioned. If every private pilot had a set of op specs dictating his every move, general aviation would probably be ten times safer. However, it would also be ten times less flexible, which really is a critical factor when it comes to the utility of general aviation. If it's not flexible, it's not much better than airline service.

Why can't you set standards at the part 91 level and not have the flexibility you speak of? I sure did. I limited myself when flying to 3000 foot runways with singles and 4000 foot runways with twins. Really didn't hurt flexibilty of flying around or enjoying what General Aviation has to offer. I had weather minimums as well.

Knowing your limits are the ops specs of general aviation.


The threshold for any type of flying, in my mind, is, "No person ever gets hurt and no metal ever gets bent."
No it should be "no person ever gets hurt, no violations are committed and no metal ever gets bend."
 
Truly don't understand why anyone is debating such a minor premise. This issue is moot.

You think the safety of the maneuver is moot? Surely you don't mean that.

Two questions arise:

1) Did he violate an operating limitation? The answer is no.

2) Did he do something unsafe? So far, the answer appears to be no.

I suppose we're asking this question simply for the technical insight gained from the answer.
Certainly.

As it relates to Class A infraction,
I have not addressed that, because the answer is clear. I only object to people saying that the service ceiling is an operating limitation with no evidence to back it up.

So tgrayson, are you making comparisons to sdfcvoh actions similar to those a young Steve Fossett might do?
As someone willing to stretch his comfort zone, sure.

Everyone here must consider that we all are involved in an activity that most people in the world consider dangerous. We'd all be a lot safer staying at home in front of the TV.
 
Absolutely. I'm not going to try and take off or land unless I have more than enough strip to do so.

That's doesn't answer the question. You're saying that I'm not permitted to land the airplane shorter than what's published in the POH? You mean I can't flare over the grass, touch down just past the threshold at the aircraft stall speed and come to a stop in 300 feet?

The stall speed is listed as 44 knots in my C172 book. You mean I'm not permitted to fly slower than that, when I have full power in or I'm light?

These numbers are performance measurements, not operating limitations, and you need to understand the context in which they occurred before you can decide how they apply to you.

There is only one section in your POH that legally binding and it's in a section called "Operating Limitations." Anything outside that is just cautious advice.
 
This thread scares me.
I've done some stupid stuff in life and in flying. None of it I'm proud of. So I can't really go after the OP but just take it easy man and if your that bored with flying just imagine how bored you're going to be later on.

Phew! I was becoming afraid as well. Thanks!

Good luck in this business if you keep pulling stunts like this, kid. Take people's critical responses seriously and understand you just did something real stupid and got away with it. You didn't get away with it because you were good, you got away with it because you were lucky.


Two rational, wise people. . .thanks again!
 
You think the safety of the maneuver is moot? Surely you don't mean that.

Two questions arise:

1) Did he violate an operating limitation? The answer is no.

2) Did he do something unsafe? So far, the answer appears to be no.

Watch this. . .

1. Is he an IFR rated pilot? NO!

2. Was he authorized to be in Class A airspace? NO!

He's flying unsafely. Debate that till you're blue in the face, but if he's doing something he's not authorized to do, place whatever semantic twist on it that you wish, he's an unsafe pilot. I personally don't care if he's got 5000 hours. . .he's a private certificated pilot in instrument rated flying conditions. Put him in a Cessna 172 or a Citation. . .if he's at FL180+, he's wrong and he's unsafe.

NOw. . .to prove my point, time is on my side. . .if he continues his "status quo" behavior, this Fossett "wannabe" I'll get to read about in an NTSB report.

Steve Fossett emulator. . .or Darwin Award candidate? That's debatable.
 
Can't imagine that it would have enough air too cool the engine at FL180. So even if it is developing little power, it still needs to be cooled!

He's got just as much air as he would at lower altitudes at the given indicated airspeed, yet the engine isn't developing nearly as much power. And the air is *colder*.

A few posts ago you were suggesting climbing into the colder air was bad for the engine because of the extreme temperature changes, now you're raising the idea the engine might be too hot. Which is it? :)

If you can't document one of these positions, I think you should be a little less judgmental towards the OP. He's now the expert in this particular flight regime. :D
 
Decided to do oxygen tests today . . . 17,999ft and not one inch more.

:crazy:Good times . . .

Yo. . .I wanna see the altimeter again. Go ahead and post it for us.

Hey, did you really rent your airplane? Did you tell the aircraft owner you took it up to 18,000 plus feet. Was the owner happy and elated with your aviation prowess? When is the aircraft due for its next scheduled maintenance? Anyone fly it after you?

Curious questions about the airplane. Oh, don't forget to tell the next renters that even though the book say 14000 feet, YOU KNOW from personal experience the airplane can do, at a minimum, 18300. Kinda like to WWII German U-boats and the depths they traverse to avoid death from depth chargers. . .which you had to do in order to fly over Mt. Tucson with an elevation of 17300 feet. :sarcasm:
 
Watch this. . .

1. Is he an IFR rated pilot? NO!

He shouldn't have busted class A, everyone agrees. Why keep harping on it? Everyone with more than a few hundred hours has busted some sort of airspace.

The high altitude alone was not dangerous to himself or the airplane, nor was it illegal with respect to the airplane's operating limitations.

Mountain out of a mole hill. IMHO. ;)
 
He's got just as much air as he would at lower altitudes at the given indicated airspeed, yet the engine isn't developing nearly as much power. And the air is *colder*.

A few posts ago you were suggesting climbing into the colder air was bad for the engine because of the extreme temperature changes, now you're raising the idea the engine might be too hot. Which is it? :)

If you can't document one of these positions, I think you should be a little less judgmental towards the OP. He's now the expert in this particular flight regime. :D

Air is thinner, less dense, however you want to say it the higher we go so how the heck is he getting as much as air as if he were at the lower altitudes?


If you are going to be flying up to FL180 in a 172 you are going to be enduring the engine to both extremes, hot AND cold.


You don't become an expert in a particular flight regime with one flight so don't even go there. I want the OP to have a very successful and SAFE aviation career just don't want to see him or anyone else get hurt.
 
Air is thinner, less dense, however you want to say it the higher we go so how the heck is he getting as much as air as if he were at the lower altitudes?

Because his TAS is higher. The airspeed indicator is a dynamic pressure gage.
 
Ahh, but he could have prevented being hard on the engine if he was flying within limits. Also, a good instructor will teach you NOT to wear the brakes out. No need for them really. I could live with a bald spotted tire or worn breaks, but not a cracked cylindar because someone wanted to go flying at 18,000 feet.

He was flying within limits! Nobody's ever proved there was any limitation broken here.

And of course he shouldn't have pushed the engine that hard. Of course he should have been taught better. I'm not saying what he did was a-ok. I'm only saying he made a mistake out of ignorance, not recklessness, in the same way other pilots wear out planes because of their lack of experience.

Neither do I, but just because the engine is certified for that altitude are other components of the airplane certified for that altitude?

I highly doubt an aircraft manufacturer would certify an airframe to an altitude the engines can't propel it to. That doesn't seem logical.

121 regs are highly conservative? No not really. 121 regs are written in blood. Someone screws up THEN the FAA goes out and changes a rule. We have to police ourselves sometimes. I called fatigue after a 14 hour duty day. Legally, I could have gone to 16, according to these 'conservative, rigid, 121 regs' you talk about, but I was dead tired and couldn't see straight much less fly straight.

The risks and rewards are the same my friend. To get the plane and people in the plane back on the ground safely.

First, I never said *every* 121 reg was conservative. Duty times could definitely use some improvement.

Take the requirement for accelerate-stop distances as an example of a conservative reg. My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that 135 and 121 carriers can't use a runway unless it meets their accelerate-stop distance charts.

I consider accelerate-stop distances to be extremely useful for situational awareness, but not necessarily a "no-go" criteria if the distance isn't met in Part 91 flying. The pilot just has to know what he's getting in to.

Would you consider a Part 91 pilot reckless for departing a runway shorter than his accelerate-stop distance? It happens (and IMO, safely) every day.

Why can't you set standards at the part 91 level and not have the flexibility you speak of? I sure did. I limited myself when flying to 3000 foot runways with singles and 4000 foot runways with twins. Really didn't hurt flexibilty of flying around or enjoying what General Aviation has to offer. I had weather minimums as well.

That's fine that you set those limits for yourself. You probably did make yourself slightly safer. But yes, those limits certainly do affect the flexibility of flying.

If I'd set those limits during all my travels in light planes I would've gotten stuck numerous times. What if I said I'd never use a special VFR clearance? What if I said I'd never operate off a runway less than 60 feet wide? What if I said I'd never fly a plane with less than a 500 fpm rate of climb on takeoff? Heck...my 140 would be grounded every day except in the dead of winter!

A person can set up all sorts of arbitrary rules that would prohibit perfectly safe operations, depending on other factors. A pilot has to look at the big picture. How current am I? How much wind is there? Is the weather forecast to go up or down? What options do I have if Plan A doesn't work? What have I done similar to this before?

A pilot using good judgement can analyze a situation and be just as safe as a pilot who uses a bunch of hard rules.

Knowing your limits are the ops specs of general aviation.

Couldn't "knowing your limits" equate to "using good judgement" as a pilot? And isn't judgement a dynamic, changing characteristic? Op specs don't change, they just are what they are, across the board.

No it should be "no person ever gets hurt, no violations are committed and no metal ever gets bend."

You're right, I should have included that the first time around.
 
... how the heck is he getting as much as air as if he were at the lower altitudes?

He's getting as much as as he would at any altitude "with the stall horn going off nonstop." :o


The OP's posts about his time at altitude suggest that he learned very little from the experience, and his attitude in this discussion suggests that he may never learn. He compares a deliberate violation of simple airspace rules (or ignorance thereof, depending on the point in the conversation) with an indavertent, brief excursion that is immediately recognized and corrected.


Comfort zone . . . that term scares me coming from a student pilot. The comfort zone should be relatively small, and based upon solid experience, not on what sort of experiments might spring from one's curiosity. Just as there's a fine line between ignorance and bravery, when one is too stupid to be afraid his comfort zone is likely too large.



I'd do a bit of soul-searching and ask myself if I wanted to have a long, rewarding life of flying, or a short, exciting one. The NTSB database is bulging with evidence of what poor judgment can lead to -- no sense in trying to make that distinguished list.






.
 
I consider accelerate-stop distances to be extremely useful for situational awareness, but not necessarily a "no-go" criteria if the distance isn't met in Part 91 flying. The pilot just has to know what he's getting in to.

Would you consider a Part 91 pilot reckless for departing a runway shorter than his accelerate-stop distance? It happens (and IMO, safely) every day.

I'm still scratching my head over this one!!?

Please explain how departing a runway shorter than his accelerate-stop distance could ever be considered safe?

An aircraft which attempts to depart from a runway shorter than its accelerate-stop distance and then has an engine failure close to V1 will crash. It will either attempt to lift-off and not have the runway remaining available to do so or attempt to stop and also not have the runway remaining available to do so.

Please, again, tell me how you consider this "safe"?


Kevin
 
I'm still scratching my head over this one!!?

Please explain how departing a runway shorter than his accelerate-stop distance could ever be considered safe?

An aircraft which attempts to depart from a runway shorter than its accelerate-stop distance and then has an engine failure close to V1 will crash. It will either attempt to lift-off and not have the runway remaining available to do so or attempt to stop and also not have the runway remaining available to do so.

Please, again, tell me how you consider this "safe"?

It's all a matter of perspective. It might not be as safe as on a 20,000 foot long runway, but it can still be "adequately" safe.

If a single engine plane takes off from a 1500 foot strip and has an engine failure shortly before liftoff, it will undoubtedly crash.

If a twin engine plane takes off from a 1500 foot strip and has an engine failure shortly before liftoff, it will undoubtedly crash.

Not many pilots would adamantly object to departing a 1500 foot strip in a single engine aircraft, but put a twin in the exact same spot and it suddenly becomes dangerous? That doesn't make sense to me.
 
Kevin, can I put in a request with Delta for you to fly me to, and from, Paris?

I think I'll sleep like a baby, back in business class, if I know you're flying the plane. :)
 
It's all a matter of perspective. It might not be as safe as on a 20,000 foot long runway, but it can still be "adequately" safe.

If a single engine plane takes off from a 1500 foot strip and has an engine failure shortly before liftoff, it will undoubtedly crash.

If a twin engine plane takes off from a 1500 foot strip and has an engine failure shortly before liftoff, it will undoubtedly crash.


Umm, I think your definition of "adequately" safe and mine are different, let's just leave it at that.



Not many pilots would adamantly object to departing a 1500 foot strip in a single engine aircraft, but put a twin in the exact same spot and it suddenly becomes dangerous? That doesn't make sense to me.


Multi-engine is a whole other world when it comes to performance issues...


Kevin
 
Umm, I think your definition of "adequately" safe and mine are different, let's just leave it at that.

Multi-engine is a whole other world when it comes to performance issues...

Could you expound on your thoughts?

Seriously, I'm not trying to stir up an argument. I'm interested to know the specifics of why you disagree.

For what it's worth, my views on the whole accelerate-stop issue come from a DPE I know who gives a lot of multi-engine checkrides and talks about this exact topic during the oral. He doesn't consider accelerate-stop to be an absolutely critical factor in making the go/no-go decision.
 
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