It seems you have your heart set on doing this sort of program despite what others here are advising. Good luck. You are going to have a hard career ahead of you. People are saying that "buying time" (even if it is in a turbine) is pretty much worthless and is frowned upon because it cheapens the profession. Think about it... Lets say you buy these 250 hours of turbine time and somehow still magically get the other 1,000 hours faster than if you were to CFI. You get to your interview with a couple regional carriers and they ask you about that 250 hours of turbine time that pretty much every other person in your shoes shouldn't have. You are going to tell them you paid to sit in the right seat of a multi-turbine aircraft to build time, or "resume build". THEY WILL NOT LIKE THIS. In fact, they will probably show you the door. They are pilots who had to work hard for every hour they earned and most will certainly never have bought them and they don't like those who do.
This is all besides the fact that you are going to have an extremely difficult time finding a job with less than 1,000 hours. Survey jobs are seasonal and rarely hire guys with less than 500TT anymore because the market is so flooded with low-time commercial pilots at the moment. Flying sky divers around is a community all its own and those guys rarely get hired with less than 700TT. You could try banner towing, but once again... see diver-driving total times. I'm not sure what you think these 250 hours of turbine time are going to get you, but I can assure you you are sorely mistaken.
This all brings me to my last point... If you don't want to CFI, then fine. Don't. I don't think people that don't have a want to teach others should be CFIs in the first place. You say you aren't cut out for it. Why would you ever sell yourself short? I thought the same way just a couple of months ago and here I am at the last couple weeks of my CFI training (just waiting to hear from my local FSDO basically) and I can tell you it has been the best part of my training by far. I've learned more and progressed more as a pilot in these couple months than I have in the past 2 years combined. And I haven't even started teaching yet. You say you would only average about 50 hours a month. Ever consider moving? There are a TON of schools here in FL and in other states that instructors are averaging 100+ dual-given every month. Moving will be an inherent part of your career as a professional pilot so why not be open to it right from the start? I understand that some people can't, but I challenge you to find me a job that hires low-time commercial pilots that fly more than 50 hours a month that you say CFIs in your area average. Some of my friends surveying only get 20 hours a month.
Adjust your expectations and slow down. You have an entire career ahead of you and there are no guarantees anymore. The industry is going to change a lot in the next 5 years so I would suggest sitting back, having a drink, and enjoying the process a little more. Please don't further cheapen an already-cheapened profession. You owe it to yourself not to do so and also to the industry that will ultimately be putting food on your table in the many years ahead.
I have said repeatedly in this discussion that I am not set on doing anything except not instructing and I have repeatedly stated that I'm willing to move almost anywhere if there is a job available that isn't instructing which will advance me towards my career goals.... I've even repeatedly asked for a third option that is not instructing and not PFT, but I keep getting the "get your CFI and go instruct" line. The impression this gives me is that most of you have never had a bad teacher / professor / instructor in your lives and have never experienced just how difficult that can be to overcome mentally and emotionally. The simple fact of the matter is that I'm trying to protect my potential students from what I know would probably be a bad experience as much as I am trying to avoid doing something I very much do not want to do.
All that 777 stuff is awesome. Great to have goals. But no matter how much right seat time you buy, that 777 with a great schedule might represent 5% of your flying career. The rest is going to be a compromise of crappy pay and ok quality of life, or slightly higher pay with worse QOL. And in between that, some really ok jobs. It's a looooong career/life. That 777 may or may not be a pipe dream, but be prepared to be very disappointed if other career options won't make you happy. People make choices in life, so far yours led you to getting a little later start than others. That's not going to keep you out of a cockpit, but it might keep you out of your dream cockpit. So if you're not willing to compromise and maybe instruct, or sacrifice a little more QOL then if you started earlier. Stop now, keep your day job, by an airplane and fly on the weekends. Buying 250 hrs in the right seat is going to be a blink an of an eye in a career (and a drop in the bucket hours wise). There's a good chance it will hurt you more in the long run than help. So listen to people that are trying to help. Don't come here state your plan and wait for people to tell you what you want to hear. That's not looking for advice, that's looking for validation of a crappy idea. There are people saying this is a bad idea because your like the millionth guy/girl to come one here asking about this.
Sorry for the rant, it's sat night after a few. Either way good luck in your decision and your career.
Disclaimer: I have never paid for right seat time. I've been very lucky in my short career, and if I'm ever in a position to make some one else extremely lucky in their career, I will do as much as I can.
I am perfectly willing to compromise in areas that I have room to compromise in... I'd happily move to the far reaches of the globe or fly in some armpit of the world for a few years if I felt that would advance me towards that ultimate goal. For me though, instructing isn't an area in which I have room to compromise for all of the reasons I've stated above and because I just don't like being a teacher. You are right that my later than average start is putting me in a position where I'm forced to consider some alternatives to the "normal" route, but even if I had started flying at 18 and been at this point a decade ago, I'd probably still have bent over backwards to avoid becoming an instructor. As I've said multiple times, not everyone is cut out to be an instructor, and as more than a few people have said, its not a requirement either.
I didn't instruct. I also didn't pay for my job. I have some self respect....
What did you do instead? So far, everyone who's said that they didn't instruct AND didn't pay for time has omitted that most important detail of what to do instead of either...
I am fortunate to conduct interviews for my airline.
I will not recommend people that pay to sit in the right seat.
You want a quick/short cut to a goal, how will you convince me that you won't short cut SOPs on a daily basis flying $40 million jets?
You raise a valid point with this, and probably the first that doesn't come across as "I had to suffer and so should you." That being said, I'm curious if you would say the same about someone who had gone to one of those crash course flight academies where you get all of your ratings in a few months rather than working for years to collect their ratings at a standard flight school. To me this is much more of a shortcut (and one that I chose not to take), than paying your way into the right seat for a year.
I work at a carrier with such a time building program. Most carriers that have these programs aren't endorsed by the FAA. That is the reason Key Lime dropped theirs. My company's is endorsed by the FAA.
Here is the reality of an FO program. Our FOs average about 50-60 hours /month. UPS and DHL runs are not usually much longer than 2 hours a day. This means the time building is SLOW. Also on top of what you had to pay you now have to pay for an apartment at your base along with somewhere to stay when at the outstation. It gets extremely expensive in a hurry. Living expenses are not part of the package.
The program is legit time but it really only works with international customers as they don't have the opportunities that we have to build time.
Get your CFI. Your resume will be better and you will build time faster. The best part is that you get paid to fly. CFI is the way to go compared to an FO program.
Thank you for finally giving some real information about how the programs work. I can see how the hidden costs can quickly add up to drastically increase the cost above the stated "tuition" bill. I would say though that 2 hours a day is still faster than anything I've been able to find as of yet that isn't instructing.
Listen to most of these post guy. Being a CFI is almost a right of passage. Other pilots will have higher regard for you as a pilot. So at 37 yrs old what is your end goal?. Just being a realist. You would probably be better off being a cfi for 3-5 yrs at an airport that has a charter department with some turboprops and jets and getting on there as a copilot for a few years then moving up to a captain on one of them. Again, what is your end goal and look at the possibility of them. Ever since I began flying these pay for training programs have been put down time and time again.
I'm 32, that 37 number was an estimate of where I would be by the time I earned enough time through instructing where I am currently before I'd be able to move into a proper flying job. My end goal is the 777, and I'm unwilling to make any career move which will not advance me towards that particular cockpit in the most direct way. Maybe getting a CFI is one of those career moves, but from where I'm sitting now, and knowing myself as well as I do, I feel it would be a mistake more than an advancement. I've said over and over again that I'm not cut out to be an instructor. Sure, I might be able to learn to be a good teacher, but that learning process is not going to be a quick one, and it will probably set me back farther than if I had taken any other course of action. Maybe it is a "right of passage," but if not instructing is going to put some massive black mark on my resume, that speaks more towards prejudice in the industry than anything else. After all, I'm not the only pilot in the world who never had any intention of instructing, so you can't really tell me that I HAVE to instruct to make myself a viable candidate for employment.
I started flying 3 years ago halfway through college. I was told from my father who is a Heavy CA at one of the legacies " Do not expect the career I have had and you better be able to accept the possibility of being at a regional forever" Things are changing and it could work out BUT you never know what tomorrow holds. The 777 goal is great but I would say right seat of it will be realistic at a major. Speaking of the 3 years, I am now at my 2nd regional after spending 1 year at a different. I taught and worked my butt off until I almost did not want to fly ever again but it got me here quick. I did not go to ATP or anything comparable, I just worked very hard to get my CFIs and the mom and pop shop ( cheaper option typically) I flew at hired me as an instructor right away. We flew close to 100 hrs a month, there are places like that, typically in FL. I did not want to miss out on last years regional hiring so I worked myself to death and it paid off. Is that a respectable way to do it? I do not know but it is much more so than paying for a job, and definately makes me proud of my accomplishments.
To be honest, I have very few expectations from my career beyond wanting to fly that 777 and not wanting to instruct. I know that is what has worked for many of you, and you are right to feel pride in that accomplishment, but what I don't understand is why, even after I have repeatedly said that it would most likely be detrimental not only to my flying career, but potentially to those of my students as well, I keep getting people telling me to become an instructor.
I would say that this lack of patience and your propensity to "get fed up" may be more limiting than your total time. I appreciate that you do not want to short-change potential students because you feel you would be a sub-par instructor - and I actually admire the honesty in that. I would suggest though that you need to work on those aspects of your personality that cause you to be less patient. As for not being a good salesman - this needs work as well - as I tell my daughter, "Everyone is a salesman". This is true - whether you are an airline pilot or whatever - you are going to be in situations where you are going to need to convince people to do things that they either do not want to do or don't know that they need to do. Now, you can assume that because you have epaulets and a uniform that they will automatically do these things...but you'd most likely be wrong most of the time. I believe that maybe the most important characteristic of instructing is the ability to teach people (read as: "work with people and get them to a desired goal") and all of the mental/psychological stuff that goes with it. I'd work on those things and not just focus on the time. There's always going to be people with more time, and "better" time - but when you get to a certain threshold (i.e. enough time to be competitive for a job) the deciding factor is going to be your personality and your ability to work with people. Just my two cents.
I don't deny that these are areas of personal difficulty that I will probably need to work on, but I will say that just because they interfere with my ability to teach, does not mean that I am unable to work well in a group. In my experience, working cooperatively with someone towards a common goal is much easier than trying to impart knowledge on them. That may sound like splitting hairs, but its been the case numerous times that I've been able to work in a group without issue until a person in the group is unable to grasp a concept, thus changing the dynamic from cooperative advancement to student/teacher. Ultimately, though, you are still correct in that it will need to eventually be corrected to make the most out of my ability to advance in life, but that is also something that will take a lot of time, and not something I'm going to be able to tackle soon enough to make myself a worthwhile instructor in the next year or two...
There was never any doubt in my mind that paying for a job would help the individuals career. But even more so, it's bad practice for the profession and for the careers of the rest. It also put minimally qualified F/O's into a seat that deserves better.
Not everyone should, or needs to, be an airline pilot. If you're looking for shortcuts and can't do the career without it them, then I'd say go look for something else. Don't be an airline pilot. It's a demanding job that deserves a well qualified and well trained individual. Sometimes getting the quals can be....inconvenient. That doesn't mean we should change the quals or the standards.
By that same logic, not everyone should, or needs to be a flight instructor. Furthermore, being an instructor has never been a mandatory qualification for being an airline pilot. Finally, inferring that someone is poorly qualified or poorly trained simply because they do not want to instruct doesn't make any sense, since it would seem that there are plenty of well trained and qualified pilots out there who have never taught a day in their lives..
I would like to reiterate that I'm not attached to the idea of PFT. I want, especially in light of the massively negative reaction given here, a third option, yet even those who say they've done it differently haven't offered up that third option. I do find it interesting though that I've not seen anyone here saying they had done the PFT and it made their career that much harder, heck, its even been said that many who have done it have ended up in the majors without issue. I can understand the idea of "paying your dues," but I refuse to believe that there is only a single route through those dues and that anyone who tries a different route isn't worth the plastic their license is printed on...
