First officer training program?

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I'm 37 years old if I were to spend another year or so getting my CFI, CFII, MEI and then another 4 at minimum to collect the requisite 1200 hours from where I am now.

I know you said you don't want to instruct but if you change your mind its easily conceivable to fly 100+ hrs per month as a CFI. Even if you round that down to 80... 250 commercial + 50 (to earn CFI-CFII-MEI) = 300. Now, 80 hrs/month X 15 months + (original 300)= 1500 hrs.

Also if you pay for your job... 250 hrs to Commercial then another 250 that you pay for = 500... What if things go bad again (think fuel prices, furloughs) and this company replaces you with another person paying? Now your down $20K and still need to make another 1000 hrs? I've seen this happen before.

 

[Stone Cold]

First, yes, you are in a rush. How dare life get in your way. Second, there is a reason the program went away. Think about it...people payed a company to fly for them, and they shut the program down. You are 32, I think you said (too lazy to scroll up). Why would a company stop a program where people paid to work unless it was not working. I hope, in this day and age, people do their research and figure out this is stupid to do.

I was 30+ also when I started flying full time again. I will just say, I will never entertain the thought of hiring anybody that has participated in one of these programs. You are in your 30's. Use your head and think about what it does to the profession. Okay, waaa, you don't feel you should be an instructor...please do not instruct then. Find something else. Go use that $10-25K to buy some time. At least that would be legitimate time if you bought it.

Sorry for being harsh on this, but this has been discussed ad nauseum on here. Best of luck to you. Go find a survey job, or a meat missile job, or any job other than instructing. As a 30+ year old, if you feel you are not cut out for it, then you are not cut out for it...

 

[Treblesum81]

Why do you feel you are not cut out for instruction?

I don't really have the patience to teach and instead tend to get fed up when concepts are not understood the first time through. This may be a result of bad teaching or just bad students, but either way its something that would severely impair my ability to be a good and professional flight instructor. I also am not a good salesman, and as a result, would have difficulty keeping my schedule full of students, since that is an important part of being an instructor.

Look at Sierra West and IBC Airways, they've both been known to hire guys with just a Commercial. Pay is low but it beats paying to fly.

Aerial Survey, pictometry, banner towing, pipeline patrol, crop dusting, ferrying aircraft (for hire) are all viable options besides flight instructing...

And if you don't like to do those things? Then your probably in the wrong line of work... flying a 10,495 lb turboprop, 48,500 lb radial, or 49,823lb turbo-jet (size of a/c I've flown) while different doesn't give you any more magic or gerth between your legs. Fun? Sure at time, but tiring and it wears off. No matter how cool it looks observing from the ground. I miss my instructing and ferrying days sometimes, all flying becomes routine.

Good Luck and pleeeeaasssee don't pay for a job!

Are you sure you are not cut out to be a CFI or you don't want to put in the time to be a better pilot? ( even if you do not teach you become more well rounded from the training) It seems you want short cuts because your age, if you feel like it is too late and you do not want to do it the right way then Spend away spendy, but I would rather spend the money on the CFIs because there is no way your going to meet 121 mins after your quality " sit in that seat and shut up" time you paid for. After that is done what will you do fly banners or jumpers? Not necessarily the flight time airlines are looking for. Good luck and please fly friendly

If I'm able to find a low time job after I finish my multi-engine, which should be within a month or so, then I'd happily take it over paying for any amount of time. That being said, and as ClarkGriswold has quite accurately brought up, I need to think about what kind of flight time the airlines are looking for. Sure "sit there and shut up" hours may not be all that great, but neither are many of the low time jobs. At the very least, the training program hours are multi-turbine, in a commercial operation environment, and I would certainly hope they bothered with CRM. The last thing I want to do is take a job which, while it would help me collect hours, diminishes my chances of getting where I really want to go.

I would also say that, while there might be a wrong way to do things, there is no definite right way, as there are many ways to arrive at the same place. You might think becoming a CFI is the right way to go, but thats for you, and its not the only way to get there, just like paying for a training program isn't the only way to get there. I am looking for the shortest, most direct path as a result of my age and my goals, if you really think that's the wrong way to go, then that is your opinion and you have a right to that opinion, but I also don't think you can fault me for wanting to reach my goals as soon as possible with as many years as possible remaining in which to enjoy them.

I know you said you don't want to instruct but if you change your mind its easily conceivable to fly 100+ hrs per month as a CFI. Even if you round that down to 80... 250 commercial + 50 (to earn CFI-CFII-MEI) = 300. Now, 80 hrs/month X 15 months + (original 300)= 1500 hrs.
Also if you pay for your job... 250 hrs to Commercial then another 250 that you pay for = 500... What if things go bad again (think fuel prices, furloughs) and this company replaces you with another person paying? Now your down $20K and still need to make another 1000 hrs? I've seen this happen before.

I have known quite a few flight instructors over the years and very few of them even get close to 100 hours a month. I would say the average monthly total for people that I've spoken with is more along the lines of 50ish hours. So with that in mind, I'd be looking at about 24 months to accumulate the hours, and that's not including the amount of time it would take me to acquire the ratings in the first place, which would most likely be about 5-7 months, so we're already at 2.5 years, and that's under what I would consider optimal conditions. Most likely, I would have even less monthly hours than that due to the factors I've stated above, and we shouldn't forget that flight instruction is just as susceptable to a bad economy as any other profession and according to more than a few sources, new pilot starts are down currently.

I think its also important to note that, no matter how I get the hours, I'm more likely to find a lower time job with 500ish hours than I am with 250ish hours.

First, yes, you are in a rush. How dare life get in your way. Second, there is a reason the program went away. Think about it...people payed a company to fly for them, and they shut the program down. You are 32, I think you said (too lazy to scroll up). Why would a company stop a program where people paid to work unless it was not working. I hope, in this day and age, people do their research and figure out this is stupid to do.
I was 30+ also when I started flying full time again. I will just say, I will never entertain the thought of hiring anybody that has participated in one of these programs. You are in your 30's. Use your head and think about what it does to the profession. Okay, waaa, you don't feel you should be an instructor...please do not instruct then. Find something else. Go use that $10-25K to buy some time. At least that would be legitimate time if you bought it.
Sorry for being harsh on this, but this has been discussed ad nauseum on here. Best of luck to you. Go find a survey job, or a meat missile job, or any job other than instructing. As a 30+ year old, if you feel you are not cut out for it, then you are not cut out for it...

As I stated before, the program went away because the company changed its operations and was not able to continue to offer the program. I have, after some changes in search methodology, been able to find several other operators which are currently offering similar programs, so its not an isolated example, and not necessarily a failed endeavor.

You said that you started flying full time AGAIN when you were 30+, implying that you had flown before and gone back to it, but I am only now working on my multi-engine. This puts me somewhere between 6 and 10 years behind the average career aviator. Those are years I need to try to make up for if I am going to be serious about pursuing a career in aviation and following a path that will further extend that time, such as becoming a CFI and then giving training for 3-5 years to meet part 121 minimums, just doesn't seem to make sense. Again, I'm not attached to the idea of paying for right seat time, but I have yet to see a viable alternative given my needs / goals. You may look down your nose at me because I don't want to instruct, but, as I've said before, just because you think its the right way doesn't mean its the only way. If there is a viable alternative to both instructing AND attending a FOTP that will allow me to accumulate hours which will work for me instead of against me, I'd love to hear it...

 

[dasleben]

I don't really have the patience to teach and instead tend to get fed up when concepts are not understood the first time through. This may be a result of bad teaching or just bad students, but either way its something that would severely impair my ability to be a good and professional flight instructor. I also am not a good salesman, and as a result, would have difficulty keeping my schedule full of students, since that is an important part of being an instructor.

Well, this then goes back to my post about "path of least resistance." If you want to have longevity in this industry, you can't expect to just throw money at problems that arise. Being a good, professional instructor is something that's learned, not a skill people are born with. It simply takes work.

 

[frog_flyer]

Why not just continue time building and wait for someone to go on strike? It'll be a great opportunity for you to cut the line.


zinger

On a serious note: you're getting some solid advice here. Pay to Play is generally frowned upon in the industry; you're undercutting the worth of a pilot by paying to be in a seat that a pilot should BE paid to sit in. Let's think big picture. Long term.

At some point, you're going to hear from a guy who flies for TrannyWest and did a similar program. Things worked out for him. I'm pretty sure I've seen him encourage other pilots to not follow those footsteps. He'll chime in soon.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

My friend started when he was 33 instructed for a year at a 141, went to a regional some Afghanistan and is now at HAL. He's 37 it is easily doable when you instruct.

My path was a lot slower because I did a shorter stint at 141 did some 61 and 91 flying and got to the airline at 27 only took me 6 years.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Why not get continue time building and wait for someone to go on strike? It'll be a great opportunity for you to cut the line.


zinger

On a serious note: you're getting some solid advice here. Pay to Play is generally frowned upon in the industry; you're undercutting the worth of a pilot by paying to be in a seat that a pilot should BE paid to sit in. Let's think big picture. Long term.

At some point, you're going to hear from a guy who flies for TrannyWest and did a similar program. Things worked out for him. I'm pretty sure I've seen him encourage other pilots to not follow those footsteps. He'll chime in soon.

Haha

 

[BeRich]

Slow down and enjoy the ride. You still have 33 years before the mandatory airline retirement age, if that's what you're planning to do. There are a lot of great experiences to be had before you land whatever gig you're eventually hoping to land, and there are too many stories of people getting there and being sorely disappointed. Life isn't a race to the finish, because there isn't one.

 

[Treblesum81]

Well, this then goes back to my post about "path of least resistance." If you want to have longevity in this industry, you can't expect to just throw money at problems that arise. Being a good, professional instructor is something that's learned, not a skill people are born with. It simply takes work.

I have not denied my desire to find the most direct and shortest route to the airlines. I also do not think that throwing money at a problem is the only way to get anything done, but it cannot be denied that sometimes that is the best option, or at least a component of the best option.

Why not just continue time building and wait for someone to go on strike? It'll be a great opportunity for you to cut the line.


zinger

On a serious note: you're getting some solid advice here. Pay to Play is generally frowned upon in the industry; you're undercutting the worth of a pilot by paying to be in a seat that a pilot should BE paid to sit in. Let's think big picture. Long term.

At some point, you're going to hear from a guy who flies for TrannyWest and did a similar program. Things worked out for him. I'm pretty sure I've seen him encourage other pilots to not follow those footsteps. He'll chime in soon.

My friend started when he was 33 instructed for a year at a 141, went to a regional some Afghanistan and is now at HAL. He's 37 it is easily doable when you instruct.

My path was a lot slower because I did a shorter stint at 141 did some 61 and 91 flying and got to the airline at 27 only took me 6 years.

I'm not trying to cut the line, I'm trying to make it there in the first place...
And I'm not trying to discount any of this advice, I am simply trying to find the shortest path that does not take me through instructing. I understand, and have understood from my very first lesson that instruction is one of the most common and one of the better ways to reach the airlines, unfortunately, I know with 99% certainty that it will not only be a poor fit for me, but it will add much more time than the estimates I've seen here. Trying to build 100+ hours a month just doesn't seem possible with the current amount of people training here in Denver, especially when taking into account the competition from the numerous other instructors here. I should point out that, like Cessnaflyer's friend, I'm willing to go fly pretty much anywhere in the world, with a few exceptions, if that means I'd be able to have a job as a pilot, sure its not ideal, but its still better in my assessment than trying to instruct for any amount of time. All that being said, I still need hours, and I still feel like a FOTP is an option, since I've not heard anyone offer a viable alternative that won't have me accumulating non-beneficial hours.

 

[dasleben]

I have not denied my desire to find the most direct and shortest route to the airlines. I also do not think that throwing money at a problem is the only way to get anything done, but it cannot be denied that sometimes that is the best option, or at least a component of the best option.

The airlines will still be there when you're ready. There is no sense in spending thousands on a right seat program just to build time and hurry into a regional. Regional airline employment is typically one of the first steps in career progression, not the destination. Trust me on this: Spending money on a right seat program is a mistake that can very well hurt your future career prospects.

And holy crap man, you're 32. That's not old enough to be in any sort of hurry.

 

[charlie1017]

Im 31 and I just made it to 121. Did a little instructing (not a lot due to the bad economy unfortunately), but the bulk of my hours came from a Part 135 VFR job down in the Caribbean. Got pretty much all my multi from there. If you're willing to move, you can get a job and avoid the CFI route. Now please, for the love of this profession, please dont PAY for a job that should be a PAID position.

 

[jspeed87]

I strongly believe that fresh commercial pilots should be allowed to internship or fly SIC on 135 runs to build time. But that's too much money to blow on something that you might not even get a job after it. It would be cool if the FAA integrated SIC timebuilding into their CMEL PTS. It just makes more sense to me, then having to get your CFI's without real world experience.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

I'm surprised this thread isn't 50 pages already. This is bad idea in so many ways. This in another item the FAA needs to shutdown after the get done with the current 121 reg changes.

1. It is a huge waste of money
2. it most likely will hurt your career
3. your peers won't respect you
4. you are helping the airlines keep salaries low and take a job away from a qualified pilot that should be getting paid to sit in that seat
5. depending on the plane and ops spec you may not even be legal to log the SIC time
6. the regs are changing anyways to 1500 hours for the airlines.

PFT, Gulfstream, et al have been discussed here ad nauseam

 

[Patrick]

If you ever happen to sit across an interview table from me, and I can see you that you did pay to play, you will very quickly be asked to leave.

It's incredibly frowned upon by those of us who have worked very hard to get to where we're at in this industry.

 

[chrisreedrules]

It seems you have your heart set on doing this sort of program despite what others here are advising. Good luck. You are going to have a hard career ahead of you. People are saying that "buying time" (even if it is in a turbine) is pretty much worthless and is frowned upon because it cheapens the profession. Think about it... Lets say you buy these 250 hours of turbine time and somehow still magically get the other 1,000 hours faster than if you were to CFI. You get to your interview with a couple regional carriers and they ask you about that 250 hours of turbine time that pretty much every other person in your shoes shouldn't have. You are going to tell them you paid to sit in the right seat of a multi-turbine aircraft to build time, or "resume build". THEY WILL NOT LIKE THIS. In fact, they will probably show you the door. They are pilots who had to work hard for every hour they earned and most will certainly never have bought them and they don't like those who do.

This is all besides the fact that you are going to have an extremely difficult time finding a job with less than 1,000 hours. Survey jobs are seasonal and rarely hire guys with less than 500TT anymore because the market is so flooded with low-time commercial pilots at the moment. Flying sky divers around is a community all its own and those guys rarely get hired with less than 700TT. You could try banner towing, but once again... see diver-driving total times. I'm not sure what you think these 250 hours of turbine time are going to get you, but I can assure you you are sorely mistaken.

This all brings me to my last point... If you don't want to CFI, then fine. Don't. I don't think people that don't have a want to teach others should be CFIs in the first place. You say you aren't cut out for it. Why would you ever sell yourself short? I thought the same way just a couple of months ago and here I am at the last couple weeks of my CFI training (just waiting to hear from my local FSDO basically) and I can tell you it has been the best part of my training by far. I've learned more and progressed more as a pilot in these couple months than I have in the past 2 years combined. And I haven't even started teaching yet. You say you would only average about 50 hours a month. Ever consider moving? There are a TON of schools here in FL and in other states that instructors are averaging 100+ dual-given every month. Moving will be an inherent part of your career as a professional pilot so why not be open to it right from the start? I understand that some people can't, but I challenge you to find me a job that hires low-time commercial pilots that fly more than 50 hours a month that you say CFIs in your area average. Some of my friends surveying only get 20 hours a month.
Adjust your expectations and slow down. You have an entire career ahead of you and there are no guarantees anymore. The industry is going to change a lot in the next 5 years so I would suggest sitting back, having a drink, and enjoying the process a little more. Please don't further cheapen an already-cheapened profession. You owe it to yourself not to do so and also to the industry that will ultimately be putting food on your table in the many years ahead.

 

[Treblesum81]

Im 31 and I just made it to 121. Did a little instructing (not a lot due to the bad economy unfortunately), but the bulk of my hours came from a Part 135 VFR job down in the Caribbean. Got pretty much all my multi from there. If you're willing to move, you can get a job and avoid the CFI route. Now please, for the love of this profession, please dont PAY for a job that should be a PAID position.

How many hours did you have when you got that job? As I said before, I'm willing to move almost anywhere, but the published minimums that I can find for jobs like that is always at least 1000 hours, which returns me to the original dilemma of how I can chew through those hours without instructing...

Slow down and enjoy the ride. You still have 33 years before the mandatory airline retirement age, if that's what you're planning to do. There are a lot of great experiences to be had before you land whatever gig you're eventually hoping to land, and there are too many stories of people getting there and being sorely disappointed. Life isn't a race to the finish, because there isn't one.

The airlines will still be there when you're ready. There is no sense in spending thousands on a right seat program just to build time and hurry into a regional. Regional airline employment is typically one of the first steps in career progression, not the destination. Trust me on this: Spending money on a right seat program is a mistake that can very well hurt your future career prospects.

And holy crap man, you're 32. That's not old enough to be in any sort of hurry.

33 years might sound like a long time, but let me lay it out like this: I currently have 240 hours (CSEL was part 141) and my dream job / top goal, which represents at least 50% of why I want to be in aviation in the first place, is to captain a 777 (or equivalent, though that is by far my #1 choice) for a major international carrier and have enough seniority to be able to choose from a variety of monthly schedules. To me, the road to that job from where I am looks pretty long, especially if I want to get there with enough time to enjoy it before my forced retirement, so any career / training option that will reduce the length of time associated with that road seems worth considering. I know there are many options out there and great experiences to have, but the way I see it, the faster I can get out into the world and flying, the faster I can get to my ultimate goal. I guess I should point out that its really just these first thousand or so hours that are presenting the biggest problem... If I try to buy rental time to get there, it will take me almost eight years to get there at the rate I'm able to fit flying hours into each month. Becoming an instructor will take less time, but between getting the ratings, collecting instruction hours at an average rate for my area (if I'm lucky), and the fact that I wouldn't enjoy it at all, it will still be at least 3-5 difficult years. Even the FOTP that started this whole conversation would only knock off a few hundred hours from what I would need to accumulate, but at least they are guaranteed multi-turbine hours. Again, if I can find a viable alternative, I'd happily take it, but all indications keep pointing to the fact that I have about 750-900 hours to accumulate at a minimum before I can start thinking about jobs that will actually advance my career, and at least a few hundred of those could already be spoken for...

 

[jtsastre]

It's funny how there are people that are in such a rush to get to the airlines and going on my 3rd year at the regionals and I'm looking back at when I was a low-time pilot or my 1300 hours as a flight instructor and wish I had slowed down and made it last.

I was 27 when I started and hated to fact that I had to instruct when it got time. But I bit the bullet and did it and it was the funniest, most eye-opening flying I've ever done. Flying for a regional is great, but like others have said, it becomes a routine and a more like a job every day. And I still have 35 more years at it.

Take your time and enjoy flying.

Jtsastre

 

[Retired in SAN]

Perhaps, or perhaps not. It may be that I have to go and get an instructor rating anyway, but I still don't plan on using it. Again, I'm not cut out to be an instructor, and I certainly won't believe for a second that I'm the only pilot in the world who isn't. I also know plenty of pilots who have never been instructors and have been flying for many years, so unless they all just got lucky, it can't be that much of a hinderance to a career in aviation.

Greg,
Ignore the "school of hard knox" attitude from what are mostly young bright and shineys responding. Not to much unlike you, I'm trying to rekindle a career at 51 on the fixed wing side and all because I tried a helicopter 26 years ago and it was a close second to sex. So I switched over and went non-stop flying herlicopters till 2007. Now, with more hours than I want to think about, I can't use but a tiny fraction of them for airplane jobs. Need to get all your ratings first? As you can see dow below, been there done that, got the shirt and wore it out. It's not the all-be answer when time is not on your side. And being honest about not teaching gets you anamosity. Nice.

The otherside of this is, TT still counts. 500 total with 100 in turbine won't convince the insurance agencies that you have world experience i.e time in the seat. in any seat.

You may look at one of these outfits that pairs you up with another pilot and you spend hours in a light twin flying legs all over the country getting actual conditions condusive to flying airline routes. After that maybe a baby jet type rating. Hell, I blew 4500 on a CE500 type rating in 2000 to get the ME-ATP so that it might add a little bit extra to the resume. Did it help? Maybe, 11,000 tt but only 1800 fixed and 230 ME I got a couple of calls from regionals to interview. it was only that I declined because of the reality of supporting a family on starting salary that hit me hard and i had to forfiet. My loss..

If you don't think you would be good at teaching than thanks for being honest and keep looking for other routes to get in. Sometime the most unconventional ideas of doing things can be the best..

Blue skies!

 

[PositionAndHold]

How many hours did you have when you got that job? As I said before, I'm willing to move almost anywhere, but the published minimums that I can find for jobs like that is always at least 1000 hours, which returns me to the original dilemma of how I can chew through those hours without instructing...





33 years might sound like a long time, but let me lay it out like this: I currently have 240 hours (CSEL was part 141) and my dream job / top goal, which represents at least 50% of why I want to be in aviation in the first place, is to captain a 777 (or equivalent, though that is by far my #1 choice) for a major international carrier and have enough seniority to be able to choose from a variety of monthly schedules. To me, the road to that job from where I am looks pretty long, especially if I want to get there with enough time to enjoy it before my forced retirement, so any career / training option that will reduce the length of time associated with that road seems worth considering. I know there are many options out there and great experiences to have, but the way I see it, the faster I can get out into the world and flying, the faster I can get to my ultimate goal. I guess I should point out that its really just these first thousand or so hours that are presenting the biggest problem... If I try to buy rental time to get there, it will take me almost eight years to get there at the rate I'm able to fit flying hours into each month. Becoming an instructor will take less time, but between getting the ratings, collecting instruction hours at an average rate for my area (if I'm lucky), and the fact that I wouldn't enjoy it at all, it will still be at least 3-5 difficult years. Even the FOTP that started this whole conversation would only knock off a few hundred hours from what I would need to accumulate, but at least they are guaranteed multi-turbine hours. Again, if I can find a viable alternative, I'd happily take it, but all indications keep pointing to the fact that I have about 750-900 hours to accumulate at a minimum before I can start thinking about jobs that will actually advance my career, and at least a few hundred of those could already be spoken for...

All that 777 stuff is awesome. Great to have goals. But no matter how much right seat time you buy, that 777 with a great schedule might represent 5% of your flying career. The rest is going to be a compromise of crappy pay and ok quality of life, or slightly higher pay with worse QOL. And in between that, some really ok jobs. It's a looooong career/life. That 777 may or may not be a pipe dream, but be prepared to be very disappointed if other career options won't make you happy. People make choices in life, so far yours led you to getting a little later start than others. That's not going to keep you out of a cockpit, but it might keep you out of your dream cockpit. So if you're not willing to compromise and maybe instruct, or sacrifice a little more QOL then if you started earlier. Stop now, keep your day job, by an airplane and fly on the weekends. Buying 250 hrs in the right seat is going to be a blink an of an eye in a career (and a drop in the bucket hours wise). There's a good chance it will hurt you more in the long run than help. So listen to people that are trying to help. Don't come here state your plan and wait for people to tell you what you want to hear. That's not looking for advice, that's looking for validation of a crappy idea. There are people saying this is a bad idea because your like the millionth guy/girl to come one here asking about this.

Sorry for the rant, it's sat night after a few. Either way good luck in your decision and your career.

Disclaimer: I have never paid for right seat time. I've been very lucky in my short career, and if I'm ever in a position to make some one else extremely lucky in their career, I will do as much as I can.

 

[tiredcfi]

If you ever happen to sit across an interview table from me, and I can see you that you did pay to play, you will very quickly be asked to leave.

It's incredibly frowned upon by those of us who have worked very hard to get to where we're at in this industry.

This!