finding CFI job after ATP

Don,

You're not going to believe this... I agree with you. :eek:

Airdale,

I know it's hard for someone who's currently in the program/instructing right now to be able to see how others may not see what you are doing as "The best" thing.

The fact is... there are people who don't learn that way... and there are people who don't approve of instruction that way. That's just life. Jealously doesn't factor into a chief pilot at Joe's FBO not wanting to hire an ATP instructor... a difference of opinion and philosophy, and a differing mindset of how it's "supposed" to be done does. Right or wrong, people are entitled to that. It's up to the individuals to help change that. :)

Bob
 
Its not 0 experience, its TT 85 hours (granted as a PPL). I've been to local FBOs, and the best instructors I've had have been at ATP. For example, my instructor would not teach out of a gouge, he taught us essentially the entire PTS though.

Are there instructors that do teach a gouge for some checkrides at ATP? Yes, they may be more common than mine. But Don kind of irritates me when everytime he mentions ATP there is a detectable level of scorn at the edge of his text.
 
Before I became a "pilot", and was trying to figure out where I should get my ratings, I was told by many many pilots, that it doesn't matter where you get your ratings. Just get them and starting building time as an instructor. Well obviously thats not the case if people discriminate against those who train at a particular school.

I don't owe ATP anything, and they don't owe me anything. I paid my fees, got my ratings and now they pay me to train their students. I'm not an ATP marketing tool, I speak of my experience here and thats it. But when I hear of schools that refuse to hire graduates from ATP for an entry level CFI position, I think its a load of crap. And as I said, any Joe Schmo FBO flight school who is biased towards ANY school without evaluating the applicant, isn't a place that I would want to work at anyway. They can hire their local 152 pilots.

Some of our graduates come right out of the program and go right back and teach the same program. It works. It has worked for a long time and the school's track record is there. Beyond that, I could care less. Its multi time in my logbook and hopefully my foot in the door at the next level much faster.

Until red white and blue Seminoles start falling out of the sky like rain with inexperienced instructors behind the controls, and the airlines stop hiring ATP instructors - then I guess I'll keep the factory running at our location. :D
 
Airdale said:
And as I said, any Joe Schmo FBO flight school who is biased towards ANY school without evaluating the applicant, isn't a place that I would want to work at anyway.
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That sir... is something that I can not agree with you more!
SpiraMirabilis said:
But Don kind of irritates me when everytime he mentions ATP there is a detectable level of scorn at the edge of his text.
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Where have you seen that?? ;)

Yes... we have all seen it. I sometimes think he says things just to get folks riled up. It makes me think he want's this forum to turn into what some of the other forums have become... a slugfest.

Let's just keep it professional, remember that everyone is entitled to their own opinions... just let the professionalism and results here speak for themselves. I truly believe that folks who wander in to this forum notice this.

This forum has the 3rd largest amount of threads on JC.com... the 4th largest number of posts, and at any given time there are as many people viewing this forum as all the other flight school forums combined. That says something about this flight school, and what is being said in this forum.

As slighted as some of Don's comments have been... they have actually helped those who may have had similar questions but were to afraid to ask... or didn't know to ask. I've said it before... opinions are opinions... but facts, results, and professionalism say something. :)

Bob
 
"But Don kind of irritates me when everytime he mentions ATP there is a detectable level of scorn at the edge of his text"

I suppose I'd say that too if I was sold on ATP and didn't want any of what some people consider "the negatives" to be discussed. It's like I play for the "other" team and you don't like it. Suit yourself. There simply is no way I can express my opinion on the negatives about ATP in a way the pro-ATP crowd will like or be happy about.

I really think you guys get your feathers ruffled too easy...
 
DE727UPS said:
I really think you guys get your feathers ruffled too easy...
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Don, I've spent way too much time and money on taking care of my feathers and making sure they are all in nice and neat order to have them ruffled! :D

I don't think you're comments are meant in a harmful way. You're an experienced Aviator with much more experience and backround then most of us have, and I think I speak for most when I say that we appreciate your insight.

I guess the bottom line is that sometimes its frustrating as a student, or as an instructor, to hear negative things about the decisions you have made reguarding your career choices. Not only did we invest a load of time and money, but these are career decisions. I can certainly see your experienced side of the discussion, and I've had this same discussion with a few examiners as well. I can see the experienced side of the fence talking, but on my side of the fence, decisions were made and now we have to stick with it. Fresh out of the program, I wasn't a great instructor but I was a good pilot and I was motivated to become a great instructor. Now with 200hrs of instruction given, I feel that I am a good instructor and a great pilot. I can only get better with more time and experience.
 
Captain_Bob said:
I sometimes think he says things just to get folks riled up...
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DE727UPS said:
It's like I play for the "other" team and you don't like it...

I really think you guys get your feathers ruffled too easy...
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Case and point... ;)

The fact is... you do play for the other team (in a sense). But you do bring a considerable amount of contempt to some of your posts about your feelings regarding Traditional FBO's vs. Large Flight Schools. When you bring up your percieved negatives... and then folks on here bring up their perceived positives... that isn't folks getting their "feathers ruffled". It's just people expressing their experience just like you have.

Now, there may be 5 or more ATP people who respond to your post... that doesn't mean you've riled the chicken coop... that just means that there are a lot of people on here training at ATP, instructing for ATP, instructing at FBO's after having attended ATP, and flying 135/121 after having attended ATP, from all over the country who wish to respond.

Remember Don... this is the largest flight school forum on JC... so folks (including yourself) are going to get more responses (positive or negative) to any input (positive or negative) in this fourm.
DE727UPS said:
I suppose I'd say that too if I was sold on ATP and didn't want any of what some people consider "the negatives" to be discussed.
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I believe that is your perception simply because of the number of people who respond to negative posts. No one has been "shut down" for expressing negatives toward ATP here. If anything people are asked to elaborate on their negative experience so others can learn from it and suggestions can be offered. This is an open forum open to all opinions.

Bob
 
"But you do bring a considerable amount of contempt to some of your posts about your feelings regarding Traditional FBO's vs. Large Flight Schools".

Again, it's not possible to express a negative opinion, and why I have it, without you seeing it as full of contempt. But anyway, this is getting dumb. See you next time.
 
DE727UPS said:
Again, it's not possible to express a negative opinion, and why I have it, without you seeing it as full of contempt.
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I think it is possible Don... Like my wife is fond of saying... "Bob, there's a hundred different ways to say the same thing to me... you chose the wrong one!" ;)
DE727UPS said:
A debate ensues when someone disagrees with you. As long as it's respectful, more power to it.
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This is all I think anyone can ask.

Bob
 
5 years since 9/11 - The company is doing better now than before - Instructor pay hasn't been raised to what it once was - Nice...at least there's a second citation...

That's about my only complaint with ATP.
 
SIUav8er said:
word on the street says they are going to in january...i love rumors!
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I can only hope so. With no medical benefits and their base salary, you really can't work here very long. I just had to pay $250 between a doctors visit and prescription for bad allergies. Not to mention out of every paycheck you have to make sure you set money aside to pay taxes. Although with the pay being somewhat below State minimum wage, I can't imagine I'll have to pay the government a dime.
 
"Not to mention out of every paycheck you have to make sure you set money aside to pay taxes"

Does ATP consider all their CFI's to be independent contractors? I don't get the tax thing.
 
Don't want to start anything, but, based on what little I know about how ATP runs it's operation, I'm sort of surprised that they can get away with calling their CFI's indepedent contractors in this day and age.

Here is a link to the IRS test as to whether you're an employee or IC, if anyone cares.

http://jobsearchtech.about.com/od/laborlaws/l/aa121800_3.htm

Some tidbits:

"An employee is generally guaranteed a regular wage amount for an hourly, weekly, or other period of time. This usually indicates that a worker is an employee, even when the wage or salary is supplemented by a commission. An independent contractor is usually paid by a flat fee for the job. However, it is common in some professions, such as law, to pay independent contractors hourly"

"An independent contractor is generally free to seek out business opportunities. Independent contractors often advertise, maintain a visible business location, and are available to work in the relevant market"

"The extent to which the worker can realize a profit or loss. An independent contractor can make a profit or loss"

"An employee is generally subject to the business' instructions about when, where, and how to work. All of the following are examples of types of instructions about how to do work:
When and where to do the work
What tools or equipment to use
What workers to hire or to assist with the work
Where to purchase supplies and services
What work must be performed by a specified individual
What order or sequence to follow"
 
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