finding CFI job after ATP

[BobDDuck]

I sort of started to pursue that whole end of things about the time I finished instructing at ATP. It got to the point that I think if I had pushed the issue I think I probably would have been out of a job anyway.

The moral of the story is that ATP is a pretty crappy company to work for. It's a GREAT place to instruct as you can build time (and multi time at that) very rapidly. However, as far as a company to work for, I have yet to see one that treats their employees as badly.

Take it as you will. If you can put up with it long enough, you'll get a better paying job out of the deal (probably faster then working somewhere else).

 

[DE727UPS]

"However, as far as a company to work for, I have yet to see one that treats their employees as badly"

Sounds like the ATP guys should unionize...

 

[Airdale]

Oh yeah , legally according to the IRS test, ATP can not consider us independant contractors. Take for example I've got students scheduled by ATP scheduling for this weekend. If I was a true contractor, it would be my option to take the work or not. Maybe I have other obligations with "my" business.

You sign a contract when hired at ATP (if you want to call it hired) that states you are NOT an employee of ATP. I think the whole thing stinks like crap and honestly if it wasn't for the multi time I don't think I'd do it. In fact I'm not sure how much longer I will do it. With no health benefits, the ridiculous schedule that changes within 48 hrs ALL the time (ATP writtens etc.) and of course the pay, I'm starting to run out of patience in dealing with it. Especially after just forking up $250 to see a doctor about sinus allergies. Thats $250 I can't afford to spend with the school loan payment and everything, but I had no choice, sinus problems = bad thing for a pilot. Heaven help me if I get sick this winter and need antibiotics, I can only imagine the cost of the prescription. I'm seriously looking into other employment options. Be it SIC 135 ops (if I can find it) or a decent flight school that pays well with benefits.

I understand why ATP works this way, it saves them huge $$$ and seeing how *most* instructors are hired rather quickly, its a cost effective method of getting the work done. Unfortunately I think their practices are illegal at best and just plain unfair to the instructors who are the workforce that keeps the school running. Without us instructors putting up with their business practices, there would be no ATP. Good school, bad employer.

 

[BobDDuck]

"However, as far as a company to work for, I have yet to see one that treats their employees as badly"

Sounds like the ATP guys should unionize...

You want to start scab labor at the flight instructor level?

There are PLENTY of people who want the multi time bad enough to deal with the problems. Heck, I was one of them. I got my 700 multi and moved on to (somewhat) greener pastures. As long as people keep getting pumped through the system and getting hired with low time (and I think we've agreed at some point that accaptable low time is 700 or 800 hours) then people will continue to instruct there. I know the number one reason I got where I am today as quick as I did was the amount of multi time I had.

 

[DE727UPS]

"You sign a contract when hired at ATP (if you want to call it hired) that states you are NOT an employee of ATP"

I don't think the IRS really cares about that.

"I understand why ATP works this way, it saves them huge $$$..."

Not if they have to give the IRS the Citation to pay the fine.

I'm guessing the ATP owners, being the sharp business folks people say they are, have figured out some loopholes to keep them off the IRS radar screen.

 

[Nick]

Wow. I did not know ATP instructors are 1099'd.

The least a place could do if they're going to make their instructors pay their own taxes is pay them a good amount of money begin with. The better compensation (food, housing, pay) the less the instructors would mind being considered contractors.

But to pay $1,000 a month and have the CFIs pay their own taxes makes me wonder why anyone would work there, multi time or not.

You DO end up paying more taxes as an independent contractor. About five percent more which is a lot after a year.

I wonder if it'd be an easy class-action lawsuit for anyone who had the motivation. There is a website somewhere that I saw once devoted entirely to suing an employer for specifically this reason.

 

[DE727UPS]

"But to pay $1,000 a month and have the CFIs pay their own taxes makes me wonder why anyone would work there, multi time or not"

Well, they doooo get free housing....

My take:

The place is a pilot mill designed to get you from zero time to a regional at min cost, min time, and min standard (you do get what you pay for). When you sign on at a place like that, neither you nor them really care about little things like the IRS and their silly little employment rules.

"There is a website somewhere that I saw once devoted entirely to suing an employer for specifically this reason"

Gotta link? Not that I'm trying to start any trouble or anything....

 

[Captain_Bob]

The place is a pilot mill designed to get you from zero time to a regional at min cost, min time, and min standard

Min Cost... Yes. Min Time... Yes. Min Standard... absolutley not. Like you said... that's just your "take" on it without ever having visited the place yourself nor having spoken to the FAA FSDO's and DE's that give the ratings to these students.

Don't want to start anything, but...

Gotta link? Not that I'm trying to start any trouble or anything....

Riiiigghhhtttt.... Not you Don.

Bob

 

[killbilly]

Well, they doooo get free housing....

Forgive me for nitpicking, but only students get free housing. CFIs are charged $200 a month to live in the housing, which means the net is $800 a month.

They DO, however, earn bonuses for first time pass rates. Ask Airdale about that.

 

[DE727UPS]

"FAA FSDO's and DE's that give the ratings to these students"

According to the ATP website, they use "ATP approved DE's"...."to ensure a low stress checkride". A newbie might be impressed with that but an experienced pilot knows better. I read something like that and I wonder why they even mention it? I think they feel the need to counter the FAA approved schools (part 141) that have self examining authority. It still sounds weird to me, though. Glad to hear they use FSDO examiners for checkrides, too. They don't really mention that.

Hey Capt Bob, have you ever heard the saying an FAA rating/certificate is a license to learn? It's a piece of paper that says you meet the min standard and are FAA blessed to go out and learn from there. Would you disagree there is a lot to learn after passing a checkride?

I think the whole "90 day fast track" concept is bad because there is no time for seasoning. You get five or six "licenses to learn" in 90 days and then your right out there teaching some zero time guy. You never really had the seasoning time or experience to be as good a teacher as you could be if you took some time between all those ratings to let it all sink in. Not that it can't be done, I'm just saying it's hardly above "min standard" to run an operation that way.

Anyhow, what's your take on this independent contractor issue?

 

[killbilly]

You get five or six "licenses to learn" in 90 days and then your right out there teaching some zero time guy. You never really had the seasoning time or experience to be as good a teacher as you could be if you took some time between all those ratings to let it all sink in. Not that it can't be done, I'm just saying it's hardly above "min standard" to run an operation that way.

Don - I've been meaning to ask you this question and kept forgetting...you've raised this point before and I am genuinely curious as to what you think...

What do you consider appropriate criteria for seasoning? Is it simply time spent in the air, or is it another set of flying experiences? I swear, I am not trying to be adversarial - I really do want to know what you think, particularly if you have a set of quantifiable times/experiences in mind.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Hey Capt Bob, have you ever heard the saying an FAA rating/certificate is a license to learn? It's a piece of paper that says you meet the min standard and are FAA blessed to go out and learn from there. Would you disagree there is a lot to learn after passing a checkride?

LOL! Why yes... yes I have Don... in fact I pretty much state that same thing in just about all my posts to you countering your discussions regarding FBO's and folks who take much longer to get their tickets. It's interesting that you are now using that remark back to me regarding ATP. And... as my track record (previous posts) will show... I certainly agree with you that there is a lot to learn after passing a checkride. I was simply argueing the implication that you gave that ATP gives the absolute bare minimum instruction when you stated "Min Standards"... I was wrong... I did not realize that you were specifically meaning that all checkrides were a license to learn and that would apply to even Joe's FBO's as well... my bad.

I think the whole "90 day fast track" concept is bad because there is no time for seasoning. You get five or six "licenses to learn" in 90 days and then your right out there teaching some zero time guy. You never really had the seasoning time or experience to be as good a teacher as you could be if you took some time between all those ratings to let it all sink in.

People used to cook on an open fire... they used to have to go cut down trees, gather firewood, build a fire pit, hunt for the food, gut it, prepare it, season it, finally cook it. Then cast iron woodstoves came along that revolutionized how we prepared our meals... Gas and Electric stoves came next... now we have the ease of convection ovens that do the same job more efficiently and in considerably less time, and the food tastes just as good... ain't progress grand?

Just because something is done faster... doesn't mean it's worse. Since you keep bringing up the same argument about how you simply can't see how it's possible that people can learn and be proficient in a short time frame... then I will revist my old argument to that.

Main Entry: im·mer·sion
Pronunciation: i-'mer-zhen, -shen
Function: noun
c : instruction based on extensive exposure to surroundings or conditions that are native or pertinent to the object of study;

Like it or hate it... and I know you don't like it... Immersion training is a proven form of training.

FBO's are great... I've never said they aren't... but your typical FBO that trains students for all of their ratings over the course of a year to several years simply can't compare. Immersion is a proven method of learning. There is no time for "Information Disuse" that can occur, and each lesson builds significantly on the previous one... it clicks as it goes... the "seasoning" for students and instructors is constant and never stagnant.

If an instructor learns a very important thing dealing with a troubled student in a specific situation... he is most likely to remember what he learned when he's dealing with similar situations every day... not when he's let it sink in and maybe may have a similar situation 3-6 months down the road.

Anyhow, what's your take on this independent contractor issue?

I'm guessing the ATP owners, being the sharp business folks people say they are, have figured out some loopholes to keep them off the IRS radar screen.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Bob

 

[Airdale]

You get first time pass checkride bonuses and amount varies based upon what checkride it is. The first two career pilot checkrides pay more then all of the others. Most I've cashed from ATP is $1100 and thats after $200 was taken out for the apartment they provided. Base salary is $1000, minus the $200 apartment fee is $800 in your check, minus taxes.....well I'm scared to computer the numbers so I'll leave it at that.

I certainly enjoy instructing at ATP, in the Seminole, and the multitude of various students we get. But after 5 months, I'm starting to wonder at what point do I move on. The instructor I work with prefers to think of it as we fly for free. But I don't like to look at it this way. I just gave over 8 hours of ground school today and didn't log a single hour of flight time. Its days like this that I can't take very long. At least when you log some hours in a day, its not a total waste. You make *few* bucks and log a few hours. If we were paid minimum wage hourly, I'd be making double what our salary is. I put in well over 40hrs per week spent at the office doing ground or flying.

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do, because if you don't like it, you are easily replaced without a blink of an eye. As long as instructors are available like a "dixie cup dispenser" as its been put, then they can crumble you up, throw you away and pull a new. Sad process really

 

[Brent.Inc]

People used to cook on an open fire... they used to have to go cut down trees, gather firewood, build a fire pit, hunt for the food, gut it, prepare it, season it, finally cook it. Then cast iron woodstoves came along that revolutionized how we prepared our meals... Gas and Electric stoves came next... now we have the ease of convection ovens that do the same job more efficiently and in considerably less time, and the food tastes just as good... ain't progress grand?


Bob

Thats how I think of it!

 

[DE727UPS]

"I really do want to know what you think, particularly if you have a set of quantifiable times/experiences in mind"

I'll keep figures out of it cause I don't want to be pinned down with a figure later, but some seasoning time is better than none. Going from zero to hero in 90 days, or whatever it is, simply doesn't give a guy a chance to use his new rating and learn from that experience. Bob will say ATP immersion makes that unnecessary, I simply disagree. I think the FBO pilot who trains over a year is going to be a more well rounded pilot than the ATP grad who does it in 90. Bob's assertion that the FBO trained pilot "can't compare" to an ATP trained pilot I find laughable. In all my time at UPS I've never met someone who got their ratings at ATP but I've met many, many, who did their training at an FBO.

I don't have a problem with getting a rating fast (you could do it just as fast at some FBO's). I just have a problem with getting them ALL fast at the same time and then going out and teaching newbies (I'd have a problem if someone tried to do that at an FBO, too). In the airline biz, only those with the most experience get to be IOE instructors and train newbies. It only makes sense that they have some experience before teaching.

As far as the assertion that ATP training is so special that the old FBO method is outdated. I don't believe it for a second. ATP's fast and they have a system that works but I don't see anything special about it. The secret to success in flight training is motivated student, experienced instructor, and a well maintained airplane. That's all you need. It was like that 30 years ago and I don't see how ATP's reinvented the wheel today.

Airdale, if ATP is so concerned with making sure their students have such great training shouldn't they take better care of their CFI's? I would think poor morale amongst the CFI ranks would filter down to the students. Sounds like your making less than minimum wage, all things considered. That should be illegal, too.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Going from zero to hero in 90 days, or whatever it is, simply doesn't give a guy a chance to use his new rating and learn from that experience.

Nobody goes from "0 to hero" as you put it in 90 days. Please Don... if you are going to argue your opinion... at least throw a fact or two in there.

Bob will say ATP immersion makes that unnecessary...

Not necessarily "unnecessary"... rather I would put it like this... I think FBO "seasoning" is not always good since you stand the chance of losing a lot of the information you've learned when you let it go over the course of a long period of time. As I've said before though... Never underestimate the power of the "individual" to overcome any perceived negatives of any flight training program... FBO or Academy.

Bob's assertion that the FBO trained pilot "can't compare" to an ATP trained pilot I find laughable.

Out of context there Don... (although I do admit that I could have phrased the sentence better.) I'm saying that FBO's can't compare to the immersion training since most FBO's don't offer that style of training in that type of aircraft in that period of time for that price. Nothing at all against an FBO trained pilot... Like I've said before... they both stand if front of the same DE's for the same ratings and they both pass or fail accordingly.

Here's what it boils down to for me Don. You've tried over and over again to make me out to be a "FBO people are worse that ATP/Academy people" type of person. When that's not what or who I am... and never have felt that way. I'm always open to discuss options with folks and help them make the right choice for their specific situation. I've stated over and over again... "ATP is not for everyone". I mean that. I've suggested on here that people always do the most research they could possibly do prior to making a HUGE life changing decision like this.

The really big difference that I see between you and me is... I can see how FBO style learning and ATP immersion style learning can both be good. You are more one sided in that discussion, and have not really been as open minded to the "other side". That's the way it appears.

In all my time at UPS I've never met someone who got their ratings at ATP but I've met many, many, who did their training at an FBO.

Try this for me... next time you fly with an ex-military stick FO... ask him or her where they got their ATP... I'm serious about that one... I think you may start seeing things that you never knew were there.

If I remember correctly... about 80% of our short program training at 20+ locations through out the US are Military folks coming to ATP to get their ATP. Where are these guys and gals going? Well, just about all my Military sign-offs had an interview already lined up at UPS, FedEx, or Southwest. I'm not expecting you to see them 100% of the time... not even 50%... but I do believe you'll see more than you think.

I have letters of recommendation and appreciation from these fine military pilots who I instructed complimenting the professionalism and pace of the program.

ATP has been in business for over 20 years... but the Career Pilot Program is fairly recent in the grand scheme of their history. So I wouldn't doubt that you haven't flown with anyone who's gone through their 90 day/10 month program... yet. Remember... ATP started out in business training military pilots to get their ATP ratings.

In the airline biz, only those with the most experience get to be IOE instructors and train newbies.

Not true... at least not in my airline so it may very well be different at other airlines... but I would say that 60% of Ground School, Indoc, Systems, CRM, FTD, and SIM instructors are First Officers. I think that simply boils down to several things... Pay for captains in the training center would be/is much more expensive, and some people are better instructors/teachers... 4 bars does automatically make you a great teacher. IOE... that's a given that it's going to be a captain.

As far as the assertion that ATP training is so special that the old FBO method is outdated. I don't believe it for a second.

Nor do I... Don, I'm not saying that the FBO system is outdated... I apologize... but most of my sly comments and colorful comparisons have been directed mostly to you and your line of thinking being outdated... When you have consistently said that you "just can't understand how ATP............"
Again... I apologize... but they were mostly informal jabs ala grumpy old man "back in my day..." comments.

ATP's fast and they have a system that works but I don't see anything special about it. The secret to success in flight training is motivated student, experienced instructor, and a well maintained airplane. That's all you need. It was like that 30 years ago and I don't see how ATP's reinvented the wheel today.

I completely agree with everything you just stated there. There is nothing special about it... they haven't re-invented the wheel... and they have created a "System that works" as you stated.

Bob

 

[flyn_ace_99]

Well, it's been a LONG time since I have posted. Especially on the subject of ATP as they put a very bad taste in my mouth, and the more REtraining I do, the more angry I become about the poor quality of flight training being given (not just at ATP but everywhere).

For those who don't remember me... here is a bit of background. I graduated from Embry Riddle and went to ATP in hopes of getting some quality flight instructing from instructors that care about thier students. I was excited to put all the stuff I learned at ERAU to use. Unfortunatly I am very disapointed.

I finished the ACPP in the spring of 04 and became a flight instructor at thier PHX location in the fall. I was a cookie cutter ATP flight instructor who really new nothing except what came out of the "supplement" and all I cared about was going to the airlines. This is the common mentality of instructors at the school. There was no direction to my instruction except for "the checkride is in 8 days, memorize the suppliment". My training was nothing but checkride prep, as was the instruction I was giving. Very sad indeed. I left ATP and found out that I was unhireable by most schools. I could no longer fly a Cessna... as I was not trained to fly cessnas. Nor was I an organize professional, as ATP's 15 day total instructor course and 1 day ground school with an instructor did not provide information on subjects like : effective lesson planning. Basically when I graduated from ATP, I was nothing but a button pushing monkey... no airmanship what so ever.

Ok, now the present. Over the past year/ year and a half I have been fortunate to be taken under the mentorship of a 30year veteran instructor who has taught in every A/C known to man. I have spent this time preparing extensive lesson plans and filling in gaps in my training and knowlege created by poor instruction on my flight school's part. I am now becoming an airman. His methods have come through in my flying.

Example: As of Feb 2006, I had not touched an A/C in over a year and was scared to death that I would plow it into the runway... Through out my extensive lesson planning, I had dug deeper into concepts of aerodynamics that, although studied in college, had never been brought to light thier effect in training. We climbed in to "wendy" our 1960 Cessna 172 and I had not ownly flown the A/C but landed better than I had in any training session at ATP (multi or single engine)

Sorry for the ramble, but my point is that ATP (as with many large flight schools) do not provide the quality education they say. They are simply checkride factorys producing button pushing monkeys who want nothing more than to get in the left seat of some large jet propelled A/C. Problem is, when the buttons stop working, the monkey has nothing left to do except throw poo, as they were not trained to do much of anything else.

This leaves the aviation industry in a very dangerous situation. I honestly believe that the industry is on the brink of a rash of accidents because of poorly trained pilots.

There were a couple comments made throughout this thread that I would like to just set some thought on.

Concerning the IRS loop holes they "Savy Business Men" at ATP are finding: If you think they are finding loop holes to avoid paying more $$$, what kindof loop holes do you think they are finding just to run thier operation the way they do? Remember, the FARs are the only rules that are actually written in blood. Every single one of the rules written in the FARs are there because someone died. So do you think finding loop holes to make your operation "legal" is safe? I don't.

Concerning the comment about the CFI's having to go through a very extensive checkride before getting thier ticket.... cough cough... BS! My Initial CFI was given by a DE on his deathbed known for sleeping through many of his checkrides. Oh yeah... I was beaten up... more by more own nerves than my examiner. The following day I was sitting with the same examiner for my CFII checkride... and yes... he was asleep. My CFII groundschool consisted of 2 hours of "tell me how to fly instruments from the right seat". Now... that completely explanes why I couldn't TEACH instruments. Explaning them for a checkride and teaching them to a student are two different rhelms of information. It's true that the checkride shouldn't be stressful... but not because the examiner is lax and the student knows and was trained to the gouge, but because they training that was recieved was challenging enough that the exam becomes a joy ride. When trained properly, the student never feels unprepared, just performance nerves.

Anyway... this is my experience and my opinion. I learn more everyday on the way flight instruction should be given. I hope to be instructing at a local school come February. My ride has been very difficult over the past couple of years, but very enlightening. I am fortunate to be able to do student teaching with my flight instructor's Private Pilot. (Kindof interesting how teachers who are going to teach 1st graders how to read are required at least 6 months of student teaching, but a flight instructor, who teaches people how to fly, is required none at all... perplexing really.)

Overall, I agree with much of what DE727UPS says, he speaks from much experience. Sounds like he is a little "old school" himself... awesome...

Good luck to yall... I'll try to keep in touch more often as things progress!

 

[DE727UPS]

"I learn more everyday on the way flight instruction should be given"

I think the CFI is very much a license to learn. You can't really "train" somebody to be a good CFI, it just comes with experience. That's why I don't like the 90 day program. You go though all those ratings so fast and then get thrown to the wolves. I just think it's asking too much.

"Sounds like he is a little "old school" himself"

I am Yoda.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Ace,

It definately sounds like your excperience wasn't positive. No way around that. I really hate to hear stories like this... but they do come up from time to time at ATP and other Flight Schools.

I sincerely applaud you for taking the time to come here and tell your story... I know you may get some other questions as a result of your post and I hope you will take the time to answer them so that others may learn more from your experience.

You say this was your opinion... but it certainly holds validity due to your experience. Folks need to see the good and the bad anywhere they go. Although your experience seems to be in the minority of most other experiences posted here... that doesn't mean it isn't important. I think we would all agree (even Don) that a good flight instructor can make a difference in a bad flight school and vice-versa.

One of the things that I'm sure you are aware of... but I'm not sure others are... is the fact that when you went through the program many of the ACPP locations had no "Chief Instructor/Pilot", and that those locations were run 100% by the instructors themselves. Most folks... given that extra responsibility step up to the plate and really make a difference. Others (I even had a fellow instructor at my location) take that autonomy and take short cuts and give the minimum instruction neccessary to get their folks to pass.

That appears to have changed quite a bit since they (ATP) now has "Chief Pilots/Instructors" (I don't know what they really call them) at the larger locations (DFW/PHX/ATL... maybe more... don't know for certain) who are now responsible for things like standardization, professionalism, etc...

I've heard stories about the DE you mention... If his name has an effeminate color in it... then I do think I know who you are referring to. I'd heard that he actually does fall asleed during you teaching him a lesson from your lesson plans in your initial CFI oral. I always wondered if it was a "trick" to see what you would do if a student wasn't paying attention to your lesson... or if it was for real. Sounds like it was for real. Funny in a way.. but I think I know how you felt since you spend so much time preparing for that checkride. Hopefully, more people like yourself have brought up their experience with this individual to ATP so that it no longer becomes an issue for them or the other CFI rides he does for the local FBO's.

It is really awesome that you took the steps you did to enhance your skills too. Having a mentor like that sounds like a great experience! Never stop using your license to learn...

Please do keep us all updated on your progress! It sounds like you're on a great path!

Bob

 

[flyn_ace_99]

Bob - Thank you very much for your positive feed back concerning my experience. I have posted negative lights about ATP in the past concerning my experience and had been trash talked by a great many ATP advocates. I appreciate your professionalism in your response.

As for your CFI being a "license to learn" I can't say I entirely agree with that. I think there is a conciterable amount that can be tought before being thrown out in the field (My instructor has tought me a lot through his own experience.) This is kindof where I think student teaching comes in. That way you are learning and being observed at the same time. I agree that you do learn a lot as you teach, however, being given some excelent tools to start with can keep you from fumbling too much as a newbie.

In my own opinion, regardless of how much ATP has changed over the past couple years, I don't believe accelerated programs such as that can make competent airmen (women, whatever). I believe that takes a little bit of time and focus. Something that can't really be put on a 90 day time schedule.

I suppose I have run into my own conundrum of expectations that will not be met by "today's aviation". In general, the student doesn't want to work hard for what they are doing, they just want to sit in the left seat of a jet... hence the reason they go to ATP. The airlines teach minimal information because they expect Airmen to be walking through their door, however, schools are now teaching to be like the airlines and taking all the airmenship out of flying and replacing training with mindless button pushing and throttle jockeying. The new breed of pilot has virtually no knowlege of why they do something, just how. This leave very little room to experiment when the procedure doesn't work for the situation given. The QRH isn't gonna give you every procedure for every situation, so being able to think outside of the procedure will save your life, your coworkers life, as well as any passengers lives that you may have on board. (Think United 232... those guys were airmen!)

Anyway... once again, pardon my ramble... I guess thats my way of getting my thoughts out there. My views on my future have changed dramatically over the past year or so. (my flight instructor says I'm no longer militant... I guess that's a good thing) I'm not entirely sure where my career will take me, I plan on instructing for 2 or 3 years and see what kindof doors will open for me down the line. My instructor has instilled into me the thought of "My Journey"... it's different than anybody elses out there, some times it's good, sometimes it's bad... but above all don't rush through it... enjoy it! You don't wanna be 45 sitting as Capt on some jet thinking, "wow, i really missed out on so many adventures." Because there really are many aviation adventures out there... they are just waiting for you to find them. I've come to talk to a great many of those people who wish they would have done different types of flying before going to the airlines. We'll see what happens.

Oooppps... did this soap box get higher or am I getting shorter? GEEZ!

Anyway... once again, thank you for the welcome back... it makes the forum much nicer and makes me a bit less apprehensive to come back. I must admit that it took me a while to decide to post, as I didn't really want my experiences torn apart and berated as they have been in the past. I appreciate the recognition and support!

Marilyn