Failure

MikeD said:
No excuse. Know the aircraft that you're going to be using for a checkride. It's not like there was a possibility of 25 different aircraft, and on the day you show up, is the day you find out which one it is and you'd better know it right then and there. Cease Quibbling.



Like has been alluded to, yes, it's a teaching test. But you have to know the knowledge in order to teach it. And you can't rely solely on notes or cheats to do it. Some things you just have to know.



Again, some things you have to just know. Not everything is a "classroom". If you have to explain something about airspace while in the air and in the cockpit for some reason, you're not going to have your dry erase board and book of diagrams. Learn some freaking flexibility and how to make do with the cards you're dealt at any given moment. :bang: Not everything is black and white there junior.

Christ......kids of today want every damn thing handed to them on a silver freaking platter.

Seriously....not knowing how many cylinders a 172 engine has? It's not like you were being asked what the spark plug gap was for each cylinder, or being taken to a hangar where there was an O-360 in pieces and you were told to assemble it and get it running in 10 minutes. And it's not like the 172 has an R-4360 engine with 28 cylinders in 4 rows.

Being asked how many cylinders the engine has, is like being asked how many tires are on a 172. Seriously.

So knock off the candyass excuses, the incessant whining and quibbling, the passing of the buck for stuff that you should've known, look up the term "flexibility" in the dictionary and learn how to teach without needing every damn crutch known to man 24/7, hit the books and take it again. It's up to you and only you whether you screw it away again or not.
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I think you win this thread.
 
Inverted said:
I was regularly flying 10-14 aircraft when I went up for my CFI ride. If you cannot remember how many cylinders a 172 has, or for that matter, how many spark plugs per cylinder it has, you have zero business being a CFI. You shouldn't be mad at the DPE, I would be mad if he passed you. I actually find it hard to believe, and would love to throw up the BS flag and just give you the benefit of the doubt that you are kidding. I am not trying to kick you while you're down, but man, you need to take a serious look at things if you truly in fact "forgot" how many cylinders a 172 has. I assume he picked the 172 because thats the plane you were going to fly for your ride? Maybe nerves got the best of you during the oral.

The CFI oral is about teaching skills, but it is also a test of your knowledge. There are certain things you HAVE to know. You cannot turn every question back at your student for them to look up. You are expected to have commercial level knowledge, this means having a pretty good level of understanding with regards to the aircraft you are flying.
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I have to agree. I have not flown a light aircraft in 12 years, and not a C-172 in probably 20, yet I can still remember how many cylinders both the lycoming and continental engine versions have, and what year they changed. As for spark plugs, well, if you know the number of cylinders, you know the answer to that one, do you not?
 
Derg said:
If you can walk into your local Starbucks and at the drop of the hat, explain how a wing generates lift, all before condensation forms on your venti iced green tea lemonade (two pump classic) and no training aids, you understand the subject..
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Except in my experience, there are VERY few pilots who will correctly explain lift, particularly those who learned out of the (incorrect) FAA books. Most seem to like to say something about it being "partly newton, partly bernoulli" and it goes downhill from there!
 
rframe said:
The older 172's also have a 6-cylinder Continental O-300. Same jugs as the O-200, just two extra.
I think they were used up until about '67 before they switched to Lycoming
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1976, but otherwise accurate. It was a big deal because the change also changed them to 100 octane from 80.
 
I guess I have a totally different outlook on this. I find the number or cylinders or model of engine in the Cessna to be 100% completely useless information. How does any of that help you fly the plane or teach how to fly it? Let me answer: it doesn't. I don't care, I never have, and I never will. I don't want to waste brain cells on crap that doesn't affect me flying. Tell me something that matters. Airpseeds for maneuvers, restrictions, how to make the toys work. Yes, vitally important. How may spark plugs? Nope, not useful.

Now here's the part that sucks. I've been through the whole process and have all those ratings and certificates. There is/was a part of playing the game requried to get here. Part of that involved learning a lot of that useless knowledge if for nothing other than to pass a checkride and brain dump it later. Sucks, but that's how it works and there's not gonna be an opportunity to change it anytime soon. Go hit the books, learn the color of sparkplug wire and part number and type of spark plugs and whatever the hell else the boss men want you to know to pass the ride and pass that ride.
 
My mom even knows how many cylinders are in her beamer, and you really dont think someone should know how many are in the plane that they're supposed to be teaching about?

I'll be honest. There have been times that i didn't even know the year or what specific model of the airplane i was flying, but I at least still knew how many cylinders where on the damn engine.
 
Rocketman99 said:
I guess I have a totally different outlook on this. I find the number or cylinders or model of engine in the Cessna to be 100% completely useless information. How does any of that help you fly the plane or teach how to fly it? Let me answer: it doesn't. I don't care, I never have, and I never will. I don't want to waste brain cells on crap that doesn't affect me flying. Tell me something that matters. Airpseeds for maneuvers, restrictions, how to make the toys work. Yes, vitally important. How may spark plugs?
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I kinda sorta almost agree to a point, which is why I still seriously doubt the single question about the number of cylinders is why this young man failed his check ride. The number of cylinders really matters far less to a pilot than a good understanding of the mechanical theory of aircraft engines in general.

However, the more one knows about the specific mechanical systems in the airplanes they operate then I think the more efficiently they will be able to operate them and especially troubleshoot them. As a CFI you can only teach to a level of your own understanding, and this is a pretty bad example of how well he knows his systems. If I were the examiner this would be a red flag and I'd start probing... How do you explain why some airplanes dont have carb heat control if you dont understand the different induction systems and which is in the airplane you are flying? How do you troubleshoot engine roughness if you don't understand the purpose and operation of dual ignition systems and what might go wrong with them (which ties directly into the number of spark plugs question). How do you teach propeller safety and the value of doing a pre-shutdown mag check if you dont understand the mechanical properties and electrical paths of magnetos? How are you showing a student how to do a proper pre-flight inspection where you are staring into the engine cowling right at the tops and sides of those cylinders several times per day and not happen to notice how many are there?

And here's the big one: if the CFI candidate didn't take the time to learn what type of engine is in the airplane they are bringing to their CFI Checkride, then do you really think they are going to be bothered with reading the POH on more technically advanced aircraft with higher performance systems before they hop in and start buzzing around? Probably not... and what the CFI displays is what the students will probably learn...

I also think that if I were a new flight student and I had some history in mechanics, maybe I'm a car guy who likes to tinker or something, and my CFI couldn't answer a question as simple as "what type of engine, how many cylinders, what horse power, what induction system, why the heck do these things still use mags, etc) and the CFI couldn't answer some basic questions my trust level in that CFI's expertise would go down several levels... I mean, this is basic basic stuff, not A&P material.

So, while "how many cylinders are in this engine" really truly isn't very useful operational information on its own, it is a question that quickly paints a picture about how well the pilot understands the mechanical systems in their airplane. It's not conclusive, but it sure sets the stage for the quality of answers that will probably come next.
 
cmill said:
My mom even knows how many cylinders are in her beamer, and you really dont think someone should know how many are in the plane that they're supposed to be teaching about?

I'll be honest. There have been times that i didn't even know the year or what specific model of the airplane i was flying, but I at least still knew how many cylinders where on the damn engine.
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I know how many are on the engine in mine because I'm kind of a car geek, but it's never helped me drive it. I'm not a plane geek, so I really don't care. I just fly them. I mean honestly, has knowing how many cylinders were in the engine EVER helped you operate/fly it? Same goes with what year it was. I'm not sure I knew the year of a piston single or twin plane I flew other than the one I did my PPL in, and that only because I had a personal copy of the how you should fly it book from Piper.
 
H2AD needed 100 octane, among other things. That started in 77 with the N model. 68 to 76 had the 150ph Lyc. Look....we are doing 172 trivia....
 
Now if you want to talk about really stupid oral questions, how about the classic "What pressure does the hydraulic gear operate at in the Cutless?".... who the hell cares? It's not like I'm disconnecting it and hooking up a pressure gauge to check it's status in flight. The motor either spins the pump, I pump it myself, or I land on the belly... that's all you need to know about the gear system...lol.
 
You see a difference there? I don't... It's still the collection of you need to know it because someone decided you need to know it. Not because it's important or relevant to operating, but good luck passing a ride if you don't learn it. Sucks but that's how it goes. Kinda feel bad for the OP, but still gotta play the game acording to the rules.
 
DE727UPS said:
H2AD needed 100 octane, among other things. That started in 77 with the N model. 68 to 76 had the 150ph Lyc. Look....we are doing 172 trivia....
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Trivia time! How can you immediately identify if a 172 has a Continental or Lycoming engine from 25 yards away without knowing the year or model number?
 
It happens. Everyone has weak and strong points. Mine happens to be engines, however my strong point is the regs and airspace. Im confident to say I know almost all of 61,91 and 830. My strong point is also aerodynamics. No one is perfect.
 
Beech90 said:
It happens. Everyone has weak and strong points. Mine happens to be engines, however my strong point is the regs and airspace. Im confident to say I know almost all of 61,91 and 830. My strong point is also aerodynamics. No one is perfect.
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Then you should've had NO problem explaining regs and airspace without needing teaching aids, a drawing board, or anything else; if they are in fact your strong point. Why were you complaining about that before then?

The point with engines is this: You should have an idea of the basics. The horsepower, is it carb'd or fuel injected, how many cylinders, fixed or variable prop, oil capacity you expect to see, what kind of oil you'd use in it, and how it works in a general sense. Basic stuff. I don't expect you to know how to build it, or how the internal parts inter-relate with one another to the n'th degree, or things like that.

Of course no one is perfect, nor expected to be. But what you wrote indicates that you're dependant on crutches for certain things that you can't use them for. While its fully reasonable to say "I don't know the answer to that, but I know where to find it"; you can't play that card too much in one ground eval session.
 
I wouldn't use notes or anything else In a oral for things a candidate should know such as airspace regs etc. I would however use models or pictures to help explain it to a student as it can be a hard subject to grasp. Yes I know I should have known how many cylinders and spark plugs are in a 172. It was a honest but stupid slipup. In the end all that matters to me is that my students understand the subject even if I have to use a billion diagrams and models to get my point accross.
 
Beech90 said:
I wouldn't use notes or anything else In a oral for things a candidate should know such as airspace regs etc. I would however use models or pictures to help explain it to a student as it can be a hard subject to grasp. Yes I know I should have known how many cylinders and spark plugs are in a 172. It was a honest but stupid slipup. In the end all that matters to me is that my students understand the subject even if I have to use a billion diagrams and models to get my point accross.
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Exactly. And of course it was an honest screwup.....I highly doubt you went into the checkride wanting to bust it. You just missed some prep items and need to understand why you did, which it seems you're getting. Now go show it right in the next checkride.
 
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